RB750 vs RB450

hedele · Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:58 pm

Hi there,

I've been wondering what exactly the differences between the RB450 and RB750 are.
Almost all specs are the same, except the RB750 is lacking the serial port and has a faster CPU (400 vs 300 MHz).
Also the RouterOS License is the same (L4).

And - a RB750 is almost half the price of a RB450 + Case + Power Supply.
Why on earth would anyone choose a RB450 now? Or did I miss something fundamental?

InoX · Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:22 am

750 has a switch

hedele · Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:52 am

So you mean that there are only two ethernet interfaces available for configuration because ether2 - ether5 are permanently switched?
Actually I can't imagine that, the datasheet does say that the 750 has a switch chip, but the 450 has one as well.

InoX · Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:51 am

450 can be used as a switch but is not a switch.

jasejames · Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:01 am

Must admit this is something I've been wondering about as well.

The 750 seems to have a faster processor -- it's the same architecture as the 450 but is more tightly integrated.

The 450's only advantage, on the surface, is that it has a console port. Useful, but ultimately not a huge issue -- you could simply put one port on the 750 in a separate VRF and use it as a management port, thereby creating much the same thing.

There must be something we're missing here -- is the 7240 processor the same clock-for-clock as a 7130, or is there a performance differential?

Bottom line is this -- if we were to deploy the 750 as a CPE, with say either MPLS/OSPF running or a firewall set with two or three internal zones (doesn't have to be both), would the device be able to achieve near-line speed at the full 100Mbps? I know the 450G can manage it.

jasejames · Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:13 am

So you mean that there are only two ethernet interfaces available for configuration because ether2 - ether5 are permanently switched?
Actually I can't imagine that, the datasheet does say that the 750 has a switch chip, but the 450 has one as well.

I don't think so. From roc-noc's site:

All ethernet ports are fully independent and support 802.1q vlans

The fact is that any modern switching fabric supports VLANs -- just that most dumb devices don't implement a control plane. Even some Chinese ADSL routers manage this with modified firmware. The difference between such devices and the RB750, build quality aside, is that Mikrotik have included a good OS over the top.

The existence of a built-in switch isn't too much of a concern to me -- there aren't enough ports for bridging two or three of them together to make that much of a difference to performance given a half-decent CPU.

The only question in my mind is whether the processor is up to the job. If this one is as powerful as Atheros's other chips we should be talking about 500 or so MIPS, which is adequate for most purposes. It's where a typical 800-series Cisco router was maybe 7 or 8 years ago. Which makes this an interesting product given the power of the operating system and the very low price. Unless of course the chip is slower than that -- Atheros seem a little coy on that issue!

RK · Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:34 am

Why on earth would anyone choose a RB450 now? Or did I miss something fundamental?

The box doesn't say "mikrotik" or "routerboard."

If you are selling for something for 3x the price you are paying for it, it's better if the customer doesn't know

InoX · Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:27 pm

So you mean that there are only two ethernet interfaces available for configuration because ether2 - ether5 are permanently switched?
Actually I can't imagine that, the datasheet does say that the 750 has a switch chip, but the 450 has one as well.
I don't think so. From roc-noc's site:

All ethernet ports are fully independent and support 802.1q vlans

RB750 has a switch chip that will allow interport
troughput up to the wire speed limit in ports 2-5 if
switching is used.

jasejames · Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:01 pm

RB750 has a switch chip that will allow interport
troughput up to the wire speed limit in ports 2-5 if
switching is used.

Yes I realise that, but the question was, does the switch *only* perform in this mode.

In other words, are you able to set switched or bridged mode.

roc-noc's site defines that you can do this. Yes you can set it to be in pure switched mode as well, but there is the option not to do so.

I suppose the next question would be, can you arbitrarily set a couple of ports to be in one VLAN and a couple of others in another, (like a Netscreen "Bridge Group"), without the system doing this in software?

Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:36 am

because ether2 - ether5 are permanently switched

no they are not, this is optional, switch chip can be turned off and you will have independent ports as usual (functionality of the ports and switch chip are similar as on RB450)

hedele · Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:59 pm

So normis why would anyone buy a 450 now? Just for the serial port?
Or is the CPU in the RB750 slower than the CPU in the RB450?

Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:00 pm

serial port, different case, different grade of hardware, different build quality.

jasejames · Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:19 pm

Interesting.

Thing is, you're advertising the 750 as, among other things, an MPLS CPE. That's great, but if the hardware is of a "different" (presumably inferior) quality to the 750, is that wise?

The way I see it, hardware is either reliable or it isn't. Doesn't matter how expensive it is.

The case argument is problematic as well, because if my boss is anything to go by I think a lot of companies would rather have a professionally-presented plastic case than a slightly home-made looking metal one, regardless of the relative quality.

Assuming that the speed of the 750 is similar to the 450, that only really leaves the serial port, and as I've said that's no great hardship.

Don't get me wrong, I can see great opportunities for the 750 (not least of which is for a small "fit-and-forget" managed switch which is far more flexible than something like an HP 1700, we could potentially use hundreds of 750s for this task alone) but I have to say that I am not sure where the 450 fits outside of a very small niche.

Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:20 pm

I didn't say it's unrelieable. they are both very good, and similarly powerful. one of them is in a plastic case, and lacks a serial port. also RB450 now come with Level5 license (!) whereas RB750 comes with Level4

savagedavid · Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:26 pm

I didn't say it's unrelieable. they are both very good, and similarly powerful. one of them is in a plastic case, and lacks a serial port. also RB450 now come with Level5 license (!) whereas RB750 comes with Level4

I hear all of that and agree in most cases. However the problem I have is even with a metal case the RB450/G does not look like a professional grade router, even though it has all the features and performance.

I for one would gladly pay extra for a modular 1U rack-mountable casing, possibly one with changeable faceplates for different routers, plus an integrated PSU with IEC style socket (to plug straight into UPS). This would separate the router from the consumer grade hardware that it currently resembles.

Don't underestimate the power of professional looking equipment; people will pay $50-$100 more just for the fancy case, even if what is inside is no different.

Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:26 pm

RB1000U ?

savagedavid · Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:26 pm

That limits you to a single (very expensive) unit for every application. What if you want 9 ports on your router (e.g. 493AH) or even 450G as in previous discussion?

ginovilla · Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:27 pm

I completly agree with this, I would gladly pay $100 - $200 for a modular 1u enclosure for RB4xx units. Make it with dual power supply...

this guys showed something on MUM

www.fmsweb.de

so far, I have not been able to order it

jasejames · Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:13 pm

Yes indeed, but to be honest you don't even necessarily need a 1U device. We install Netscreen SSG5s everywhere and don't get complaints about them looking unprofessional.

I think the 750 is a step in the right direction quite honestly. My boss's main objection initially to the Mikrotiks didn't come from any deficiencies in the hardware, the problem was the casing and the DIY approach.

If the 450G was presented like an SSG5, for example, I'm sure the company would happily pay $200-250 for it. It does 90% of what the Juniper will do for far less money, but it's presented in such a way that it scares some people off.

It gets worse with the wireless kit. Properly presented a couple of 4x3AH boards would achieve most of what we manage with Trapeze kit (especially for smaller sites), and a whole lot more, but it just doesn't look pretty. That's a pity really.

As it is we're looking now to buy in far less capable cheap APs (Senao etc, decent devices but not in the same league) for small sites where the Mikrotik would have been such a much better fit in most regards.

Bottom line: if you were to put a 433UAH in a plastic case that made it look like a standard access point, with all the branding etc like a 750, we'd probably buy in 200 of them tomorrow. It'd be a much easier sell.

savagedavid · Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:55 am

Agreed on almost every point. I would have 2 applications: A "standard" client who would be very happy with a plastic case RB750 style unit, and a "professional" client who would demand the 1U/2U style device in their rack. Both unit styles have their place.

For outdoor applications we have standardized on 2 enclosure types. For integrated units we use a diecast aluminium unit with integrated 23dB flat panel, and for external antenna we have a diecast aluminium box with external connectors (see attached images). We can fortunately purchase these quite cheaply locally (under US$35 for the enclosure and about US$100 for the integrated unit) and I feel these installs look quite professional.

savagedavid · Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:06 am

My boss's main objection initially to the Mikrotiks didn't come from any deficiencies in the hardware, the problem was the casing and the DIY approach.

Agreed, I sometimes feel embarrassed going to a client with an indoor RB450G unit. No box, manual, etc.

Whatever happened to the RB532's that Mikrotik used to supply for training? Those had a box with everything neatly packaged inside, including PSU and patch cable. A small thing, but did loads to change the impression of what you were getting.

Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:07 am

No box, manual, etc.

depends on where you buy them

hedele · Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:02 pm

depends on where you buy them

I bought Routerboards at two different distributors in europe, one does not supply any box or manual. The other one only supplies a manual when you buy a pre-assembled Routerboard, but no box, and they don't supply a manual when ordering single parts (e.g. RB450, case and power adapter separately)

However, for me that is not an issue. When I choose to use a Routerboard for a project/client, then I configure and install it, and the customer is told to keep their fingers away from the little black box

We don't sell Routerboards in retail, we sell solutions, and if that solution includes a Routerboard, the customer doesn't have to care and he shouldn't have to either.

jasejames · Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:57 pm

I don't care about the pretty box either. That gets thrown away.

My point is that bosses tend to like something that "looks like a router", not something I've put together out of an off-the-shelf metal box and some switches.

I'm not making any comment on the actual build quality of the case -- they're pretty good -- but it's all about perceptions.

It's like a Korean car. You have all the pieces that make a good car, it's well designed by people who know what they are doing and put together with care, but they spoil it with cheap plastics on the glove compartment and a tinny clang when you close the door.

The fact that the car is probably more reliable than a Volkswagen doesn't convince a lot of people.

msorensen · Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:00 am

I don't care about the pretty box either. That gets thrown away.

My point is that bosses tend to like something that "looks like a router", not something I've put together out of an off-the-shelf metal box and some switches.

I'm not making any comment on the actual build quality of the case -- they're pretty good -- but it's all about perceptions....

our routerboards come in anti static bags.... and that's fine with me. Do not spend money on packaging that will be garbage.

I DO wish that indoor cases looked more professional.

And I wish that they had a little more room for labeling. We like to label our equipment with port IP addresses, allowable power supply voltage, etc, etc, etc, etc. That is difficult to do with most indoor routerboard cases.

It would help immensely if routerboards were more uniform in their mounting holes and in the arrangement of ports so that a single model of indoor case could be used for multiple routerboard models.... no one cares if there was extra room in the box for some of the smaller foot print routerboard models.

PS: I did come here trying to learn more about the RB750. There is nothing at routerboard.com, yet..... hint, hint, hint....

.

Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:27 am

routerboard.com -> prices -> RB750 -> http://www.routerboard.com/pdf/rb750.pdf

we are working on a new product page for routerboard.com, with so many products to be released now, the old page can't hold them anymore.

by the way, RB750 will come in a box.

cigamit · Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:22 pm

With the advances in 3D printing nowadays, I was thinking of designing and printing a case for my 433ah (and maybe my 150 and 450g). Something like shapeways.com would do the trick I think. Then a dab of paint from a car model kit, maybe print a few stickers...

eben · Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:03 pm

I hear all of that and agree in most cases. However the problem I have is even with a metal case the RB450/G does not look like a professional grade router, even though it has all the features and performance.

I have the same problem.

I've designed a nice 1U rackmount case that we can pop a RB450 in. The cost for Schurman to laser cut the sheet metal for just one or two is prohibitive. We'd end up paying more for the case than for the RB450.

Please PM me if you know of others who would be interested in this type of case. If we could get a reasonable number (maybe 50 or so) together, we could get the cases made up at prices that won't break the bank.

eben · Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:05 pm

Just to add to this. I recently removed an RB450 from a client's site and replaced it with a rackmount PC running RouterOS because I got fed up with the client blaming his problems on his "toy router".

RK · Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:32 am

Please PM me if you know of others who would be interested in this type of case. If we could get a reasonable number (maybe 50 or so) together, we could get the cases made up at prices that won't break the bank.

Count me in for a few units. This forum does not support PM, so post your email address.
Maybe you should start a new thread with some more details, such as how it looks like and expected price at 50 units.
If it's any good, I think you can easily sell 50.

It has gotten to the point where customers refer to the RB450 as "my little switch."

Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:44 am

you are welcome to join our MFM program as an accessory maker. Maybe it could turn out to be a good business

hilton · Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:49 pm

I've designed a nice 1U rackmount case that we can pop a RB450 in. The cost for Schurman to laser cut the sheet metal for just one or two is prohibitive. We'd end up paying more for the case than for the RB450.

Please PM me if you know of others who would be interested in this type of case. If we could get a reasonable number (maybe 50 or so) together, we could get the cases made up at prices that won't break the bank.

It would as DS suggested be very useful if the case could accommodate different faceplates (potentially made from plastic) as well as a front USB port. What happens behind the faceplate is somewhat irrelevant.

I too have had the "Is this all I'm getting?" response when I whip out a RB450 or RB433.

eben · Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:05 pm

This morning I removed an RB450 from a client's site and replaced it with a P3-866 HP desktop with a 64MB CF card, 512MB RAM and 2 ethernet ports running ROS3.28

The machine takes up about 4U in the guy's network cabinet and he's happy as Larry that the little router's been replaced with something more substantial.

rmichael · Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:33 am

This case seems nice:

http://www.streakwave.com/mmSWAVE1/Imag ... 20copy.jpg

RK · Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:14 am

This case seems nice:

http://www.streakwave.com/mmSWAVE1/Imag ... 20copy.jpg

I think it's a brand new product.
Someone is thinking along the right lines.

THG · Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:59 pm

RB750 comes with Level4

The product brochure says it comes with RouterOS v3.

http://www.routerboard.com/pricelist/do ... file_id=91

If I order RB750 after the weekend, can I be sure to get them with RouterOS v4?

m4rk0 · Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:25 pm

Just to add to this. I recently removed an RB450 from a client's site and replaced it with a rackmount PC running RouterOS because I got fed up with the client blaming his problems on his "toy router".

Same problems here

Did anyone tried http://www.tarnow.net.pl/dane_firm/388/ ... 135&fid=55 ?

robertfranz · Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:18 pm

The flip side to the pretty, professional rackmount case is that the tco would be very high for me.

We use 450G's at our branches and in the colo.

The little 450G is housed with our servers at no extra cost, but a full 1U unit would be an extra $40 a month.

Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:45 am

RB750 comes with Level4
The product brochure says it comes with RouterOS v3.

http://www.routerboard.com/pricelist/do ... file_id=91

If I order RB750 after the weekend, can I be sure to get them with RouterOS v4?

I don't think so, but the upgrade is free and easy.

rmichael · Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:29 pm

RB750 comes with Level4
The product brochure says it comes with RouterOS v3.

http://www.routerboard.com/pricelist/do ... file_id=91

If I order RB750 after the weekend, can I be sure to get them with RouterOS v4?
I don't think so, but the upgrade is free and easy.

Don't you loose one free upgrade that way? i.e. if it comes with v3 than you upgrade for free to v4, if it came with v4 you're eligible to free v5...

riptanto · Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:00 pm

Don't you loose one free upgrade that way? i.e. if it comes with v3 than you upgrade for free to v4, if it came with v4 you're eligible to free v5...

I have few RB750 for my customers, all came with v3.29 and the license says it was upgradeable to v4.x. But after I upgraded to v4.2, the license says it does upgradeable to v5.x.

chrone · Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:42 pm

can rb750 use multiple ISP?

Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:00 pm

can rb750 use multiple ISP?

Yes, of course it is possible.

chrone · Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:21 pm

can rb750 use multiple ISP?
Yes, of course it is possible.

oh ok, is it the same as with rb450? thanks for the info.

fewi · Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:25 pm

Well, yes. Like a 450 a 750 has multiple ethernet interfaces. It runs the same RouterOS.

hedele · Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:08 pm

hmm...

Did Mikrotik by chance revamp the RB450 a bit?
A RB450 I got about 3 weeks ago seems to have 64 Megs of RAM instead of the usual 32 Megs.
On a related note, the NAND Size of the RB1000 also seems to have been boosted from 64 Megs to 512.

[admin@MikroTik] /system resource> print
                   uptime: 2m3s
                  version: "4.3"
              free-memory: 52316kB
             total-memory: 62432kB
                      cpu: "MIPS 24K V7.4"
                cpu-count: 1
            cpu-frequency: 300MHz
                 cpu-load: 4
           free-hdd-space: 32616kB
          total-hdd-space: 61440kB
  write-sect-since-reboot: 237
         write-sect-total: 176268
               bad-blocks: 0
        architecture-name: "mipsbe"
               board-name: "RB450"

RK · Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:09 am

hmm...

Did Mikrotik by chance revamp the RB450 a bit?
A RB450 I got about 3 weeks ago seems to have 64 Megs of RAM instead of the usual 32 Megs.
On a related note, the NAND Size of the RB1000 also seems to have been boosted from 64 Megs to 512.

They do that once a while.
They take some time to update the specs, though, cause (I think) there are plenty of old boards in the supply chain and they don't want anyone to be disappointed.

meno · Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:17 am

hmm...

Did Mikrotik by chance revamp the RB450 a bit?
A RB450 I got about 3 weeks ago seems to have 64 Megs of RAM instead of the usual 32 Megs.
On a related note, the NAND Size of the RB1000 also seems to have been boosted from 64 Megs to 512.
Code: Select all
[admin@MikroTik] /system resource> print
                   uptime: 2m3s
                  version: "4.3"
              free-memory: 52316kB
             total-memory: 62432kB
                      cpu: "MIPS 24K V7.4"
                cpu-count: 1
            cpu-frequency: 300MHz
                 cpu-load: 4
           free-hdd-space: 32616kB
          total-hdd-space: 61440kB
  write-sect-since-reboot: 237
         write-sect-total: 176268
               bad-blocks: 0
        architecture-name: "mipsbe"
               board-name: "RB450"

can you send a photo of the PCB please, I want to see what kind of RAM do they put

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