v6.42.11 [long-term] is released!

emils · Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:16 pm

RouterOS version 6.42.11 has been released in public "long-term" channel!

Before an upgrade:
1) Remember to make backup/export files before an upgrade and save them on another storage device;
2) Make sure the device will not lose power during upgrade process;
3) Device has enough free storage space for all RouterOS packages to be downloaded.

What's new in 6.42.11 (2018-Dec-21 09:17):

MAJOR CHANGES IN v6.42.11:
----------------------
!) telnet - do not allow to set "tracefile" parameter;
----------------------

*) capsman - fixed "group-key-update" parameter not using correct units;
*) certificate - properly flush old CRLs when changing store location;
*) console - properly remove system note after configuration reset;
*) dhcpv6-server - properly handle DHCP requests that include prefix hint;
*) discovery - fixed malformed neighbor information for routers that has incomplete IPv6 configuration;
*) discovery - fixed neighbor discovery for PPP interfaces;
*) export - fixed "silent-boot" compact export;
*) gps - added "coordinate-format" parameter;
*) interface - improved system stability when including/excluding a list to itself;
*) kidcontrol - do not allow users with "read" policy to pause and resume kids;
*) led - fixed default LED configuration for RBMetalG-52SHPacn;
*) log - properly handle long echo messages;
*) lte - added support for more ZTE MF90 modems;
*) lte - disallow setting LTE interface as passthrough target;
*) package - use bundled package by default if standalone packages are installed as well;
*) resource - fixed "total-memory" reporting on ARM devices;
*) snmp - added "tx-ccq" ("mtxrWlStatTxCCQ") and "rx-ccq" ("mtxrWlStatRxCCQ") values;
*) snmp - do not initialise interface traps on bootup if they are not enabled;
*) switch - fixed MAC learning when disabling interfaces on devices with Atheros8327 and QCA8337 switch chips;
*) system - fixed situation when all configuration was not properly loaded on bootup;
*) timezone - fixed "Europe/Dublin" time zone;
*) upgrade - automatically uninstall standalone package if already installed in bundle;
*) webfig - do not show bogus VHT field in wireless interface advanced mode;
*) winbox - allow to change VHT rates when 5ghz-n/ac band is used;
*) winbox - renamed "Radius" to "RADIUS";
*) winbox - show "Switch" menu on RB4011iGS+5HacQ2HnD and RB4011iGS+;
*) wireless - added new "installation" parameter to specify router's location;
*) wireless - improved stability for 802.11ac;
*) wireless - improvements in wireless frequency selection;

To upgrade, click "Check for updates" at /system package in your RouterOS configuration interface, or head to our download page: http://www.mikrotik.com/download

If you experience version related issues, then please send supout file from your router to support@mikrotik.com. File must be generated while router is not working as suspected or after some problem has appeared on device

Please keep this forum topic strictly related to this specific RouterOS release.

R1CH · Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:40 pm

Tried to update to 6.42.11 from 6.42.9 on a hEX using "Download and install", then realized I needed to check something so hit Cancel at about 90% downloaded. I then tried "Download and install" later and it says "not enough disk space" and there's no files available to delete. How do I delete this partial download so it doesn't try to install and brick itself on reboot?

rua · Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:20 pm

Tried to update to 6.42.11 from 6.42.9 on a hEX using "Download and install", then realized I needed to check something so hit Cancel at about 90% downloaded. I then tried "Download and install" later and it says "not enough disk space" and there's no files available to delete. How do I delete this partial download so it doesn't try to install and brick itself on reboot?

hi
make backup - export backup to pc - reset hEX - restore backup
good luck

freemannnn · Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:42 pm

Tried to update to 6.42.11 from 6.42.9 on a hEX using "Download and install", then realized I needed to check something so hit Cancel at about 90% downloaded. I then tried "Download and install" later and it says "not enough disk space" and there's no files available to delete. How do I delete this partial download so it doesn't try to install and brick itself on reboot?

i have this problem many times with rb's with 16mb. just reboot the router and partial download will go away.

R1CH · Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:45 pm

Tried to update to 6.42.11 from 6.42.9 on a hEX using "Download and install", then realized I needed to check something so hit Cancel at about 90% downloaded. I then tried "Download and install" later and it says "not enough disk space" and there's no files available to delete. How do I delete this partial download so it doesn't try to install and brick itself on reboot?
i have this problem many times with rb's with 16mb. just reboot the router and partial download will go away.

Thanks, this worked, I was worried it would try to install from the partial file, good to see other people have experienced this too. RouterOS should really delete any partial download if the process is cancelled though!

pcunite · Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:04 pm

On the RB4011, the minimum RouterOS version is 6.43. Is there a way to install these bugfix versions?

honzam · Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:08 pm

On the RB4011, the minimum RouterOS version is 6.43. Is there a way to install these bugfix versions?

No, use latest STABLE - 6.43.8

rextended · Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:12 pm

WARNING!!! DO NOT USE 6.42.11 IF MANUAL-TX-POWER OR SUPERCHANNEL ARE USED!!!

Thanks MikroTik staff for NOT write anything about that in the changelog..................

I LOST CONNECTION ON DISTANT HARDWARE...
ON CHANGELOG ARE NOT PRESENT THAT:

MANUAL-TX-POWER AND SUPERCHANNEL ARE REMOVED FROM SOME COUNTRY (eg. Italy...)

Some country now are locked to regulatory-domain power and channel only (NO manual-tx-power supported!!!).

And if I want still use manual-tx-power and/or superchannel (long rf cable on netmetal for example), what country I can select? Compilance Testing, like other brands do not exist…

rextended · Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:13 pm

rextended · Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:14 pm

And now on NetMetal used on Italy, how I can set more than 17dB (for stream) on tx-power?...…...

mrz · Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:31 pm

superchannel is not removed.Country selection is to comply with regulations.
If you want to break the law select superchannel, no country and keep using your link as before.

rextended · Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:15 pm

superchannel is not removed.Country selection is to comply with regulations.
If you want to break the law select superchannel, no country and keep using your link as before.

The point is not that.

Why MikroTik has not warned of such a change, destructive in many cases???

In distant links you lose control and then you have to go there in person ...

Jotne · Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:14 pm

superchannel is not removed.Country selection is to comply with regulations.
If you want to break the law select superchannel, no country and keep using your link as before.

When you see how much problem this gives and what a big change this is, it has nothing to do with an stable path,
This is NOT a bugfix, this is a change how RouterOS works.
Ok when you go from 6.43 to 6.44 it's ok to add this, but going from 6.42.10 to 6.42.11 ????
Same with 6.43.7 to 6.43.8, strange.

Pleas add only bugfix to patch. Change mayor function and new function belongs to beta and new version.

mkx · Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:29 pm

I seem to remember a few panicking posts in this forum, stating that Spain was about to ban certain type of Routerboards. And MT response was that they're gonna fix the problem. I can only guess what was that upset Spanish telecommunications regulator to initiate such a drastic move, but I'd say that discovery that even with proper regional setting (country set to correct value) it is easy to violate regulations may warrant such move. If I'm right, then Mikrotik did not have any choice but to enforce adherence to country regulations ... or else they would be in big trouble - bigger than any of large Mikrotik customers can cause.

alejosalmon · Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:35 pm

In my case I select Peru and superchannel and all is ok.No changes.Also I have seen that there is more countries with no changes,unfortunately few ones have new regulations,but there is always a solution.

deanMKD1 · Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:07 pm

Can i upgrade from stable 6.43.4 to this bugfix? Is better that one i use currently? Any advice?

LeftyTs · Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:12 am

Many different devices have been upgraded successfully from the previous bugfix release. However, one of the CCR routers, and ONLY one of them (other CCRs worked fine), decided to reset its configuration after the upgrade and I had to restore it using a serial cable from the backup configuration saved in flash. Any idea anyone why this may have happened?

Jotne · Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:02 am

I seem to remember a few panicking posts in this forum, stating that Spain was about to ban certain type of Routerboards. And MT response was that they're gonna fix the problem.

I have no problem with that, just not put a big change like this in a stable release.
As we have seen here, several customer gets in problem, and this without a proper warning.
Give it out in a beta release. And then later in 6.44. Governmental should be fine with that. They have done their part.

As some has discussed here before, that they would like an auto upgrade.
I do see with fear how bad this could go here in Norway with lots of mountains and some of then with repeater in top of them.
Some of them is hardly not available in winter time or with bad weather....

mkx · Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:10 am

@Jotne, I can understand all of the arguments you make. And personally I do violate regulations from time to time as well. However, I agree with MT (making ROS fully regulation compliant) even more.

As I wrote before: ROS gives user all the possibilities to violate the regulations but it's entirely up to every user to understand when he is violating requlations and assume full responsibility for it. Most of problems users are having are result of non-complete understanding (to put it mildly) ... and running some business (WISP in this case) with lack of knowledge is not responsibility of equipment vendor. As things are increasingly software-based in this world, one needs to continuously track changes in software (before applying the new one) as much as one traditionally used to track changes in hardware.
Nobody is forced to run PtP or PtMP links on ISM bands (which come with restrictions that are long known but many users are actively developing solutions that allow them to violate restrictions, the most prominent is EIRP limit but some users pretend it's about PA output power), there are solutions that come with less restrictions (and higher price tag).

When rules are violated, everybody is going to cover their arses and MT is just doing their part. Users should not (and can not) expect MT to cover arses for them.

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:28 am

What are you trying to achieve here, rextended?

You have always had two choices:

1) Set Country, follow regulations, follow frequency list, output power, trust automatic settings like DFS etc.
2) Set no-country, use manual power, manual frequency, manual all things.

So how come something got broken for you? Maybe you did set the Country for no reason, or did not understand how this setting is supposed to work?

If you need fully manual control, do not use the country setting. It's not for you. If you have special permissions and need full manual control, advanced settings etc, you should never use country. Not now, not 5 years ago.

mistry7 · Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:29 am

What are you trying to achieve here, rextended?

You have always had two choices:

1) Set Country, follow regulations, follow frequency list, output power, trust automatic settings like DFS etc.
2) Set no-country, use manual power, manual frequency, manual all things.

So how come something got broken for you? Maybe you did set the Country for no reason, or did not understand how this setting is supposed to work?

If you need fully manual control, do not use the country setting. It's not for you. If you have special permissions and need full manual control, advanced settings etc, you should never use country. Not now, not 5 years ago.

Hi normis,

your position is 100% right but, if you change working combination
(country + Superchannel) to (country + regular domain) then it could happened that links don't work anymore.

And this could be cost for driving and handling offline costumers after upgrade.
As the only think, i appreciate was clearly Changelog!

mistry7

mkx · Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:44 pm

your position is 100% right but, if you change working combination
(country + Superchannel) to (country + regular domain) then it could happened that links don't work anymore.

Some bugs are not bothering users (and they like to call them "features") but are bugs nevertheless. I don't hear anybody complaining that a "non working feature" was fixed.

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:32 pm

Some bugs are not bothering users (and they like to call them "features") but are bugs nevertheless. I don't hear anybody complaining that a "non working feature" was fixed.

Exatly!
To be honest, i was living in a "dreamworld" that by selecting country i automatically apply to country regulations till i read this post

oops!!
And i'm sure i'm not the only one in this "dreamworld" and from that point of view this changelog line looks somewhat adequate

*) wireless - improvements in wireless frequency selection;

it is very inviting, of course i would like improved wireless frequency selection

marekm · Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:10 pm

1) Set Country, follow regulations, follow frequency list, output power, trust automatic settings like DFS etc.
2) Set no-country, use manual power, manual frequency, manual all things.

3) Set Country for default frequency list (follow regulations in that respect), Superchannel to allow manual power setting (impossible to follow regulations in that respect anymore since all competitors use maximum power), turn off DFS (lots of false positives, so prefer to manually avoid frequencies the regulatory authority asked us not to use) and allow adding my licensed channels to frequency list (so I can have a common CPE config, and have pre-configured CPEs on the shelf waiting to be installed anywhere and connect to the nearest AP either unlicensed 5GHz or licensed 6GHz; today there are 6GHz devices but SXTsqHP was available earlier, is cheaper and works below 6100 MHz at short distances).

Station only transmits anything after it hears beacons with correct SSID on that channel, so it only breaks the law if the AP has already broken the law anyway. Much less damage (lost time and CO2 emissions from truck rolls etc.) would be done if the change (disable superchannel if country set) was only forced if device is in AP (not station) mode. And, there is no excuse for lack of very big warning (not calling it some vague "improvements" with no further description) in the changelog!

Jotne · Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:56 pm

As I wrote before: ROS gives user all the possibilities to violate the regulations but it's entirely up to every user to understand when he is violating requlations and assume full responsibility for it.

I do 100% agree with you, but some people has just used the setting that was there, maybe without knowing what it involves.
For these customer, this may result in big problem, and only information you did get before upgrade was:

*) wireless - improvements in wireless frequency selection;

No warning, nothing tells that this may break the link. Its still not to late to edit the release-notes for current version.
Not all read forum, but at least you do see whats new when you does an upgrade.
So do not make this big change in "long-term". This is not a bugfix, but a change in function.......

whatever · Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:09 pm

So do not make this big change in "long-term". This is not a bugfix, but a change in function.......

I guess releasing a "new" version which doesn't respect country regulations might cause legal trouble. But a simple notice in the changelog wouldn't hurt either: "Make sure you are compliant with your local regulations before updating, otherwise you may lose connectivity.".done.

whitbread · Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:18 am

Sry the actual approach is bulshit!
Iam willing to comply with regulations in all areas except power. So we need a manual power setting to override. I live in an area without any neighbor wireless networks - so no big deal here. Otherwise the people are using no country setting in the future leading to messing up with the frequencies - this would be an even worse scenario.

rextended · Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:50 pm

What are you trying to achieve here, rextended?

You have always had two choices:

1) Set Country, follow regulations, follow frequency list, output power, trust automatic settings like DFS etc.
2) Set no-country, use manual power, manual frequency, manual all things.

So how come something got broken for you? Maybe you did set the Country for no reason, or did not understand how this setting is supposed to work?

If you need fully manual control, do not use the country setting. It's not for you. If you have special permissions and need full manual control, advanced settings etc, you should never use country. Not now, not 5 years ago.

I (all user) want Italy (country) + manual-tx-power (or add cable loss field).

Again: the point is NOT what I want to do, but:
WHY "you" have done that change without inform???

If on previous verson you permit to use Italy + manual-tx-power, and on the next you arbitrally force to use Italy + regulatory-domain (WHERE ARE THE CABLE LOSS FILED???) you have damaged some WISP because you suppose that no one use Italy + manual-tx-power because your software do not count loss on pigtail and long (30, 40mt) RF cables.

The regulatory on UE are: 1W EIRP 1m on front of antenna, NOT 1W at the routerboard CONNECTOR.
Understand the differences?

rextended · Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:13 pm

Maybe you did set the Country for no reason, or did not understand how this setting is supposed to work?

You have count how many people understand thing on "other way" like me?
If something can be set like Italy + manual-tx-power, why "you" suppose no one in Italy use that settings?
And on all other EU country?

I suggest:
Remove 6.42.11 and 6.43.8 from your servers.
Release 6.42.12 and 6.43.9 without that bad ********......
Add on 6.44rcxx cable loss field on models with connectors (= 1W EIRP, not 1W at sma connector...)
Put new frequency selection on 6.44 AND WARN ON CHANGELOG USERS ABOUT THAT CHANGE!!!

OR
Remove 6.42.11 and 6.43.8 from your servers.
Release 6.42.12 and 6.43.9: if frequency-mode field are already regulatory-domain, leave country as are,
If frequency-mode are different, set country to no_country_set,
on thath way no one complain or lost the link.....

rextended · Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:20 pm

But why if you do something, must be perfect
and do not notice how much users complain about the wrong way you have made a choice?

The point is not to be illegal,
but stop the operation of radio links to which there are connected users who give money to those who buy the Routerboards ...

mkx · Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:46 pm

Add on 6.44rcxx cable loss field on models with connectors (= 1W EIRP, not 1W at sma connector...)

And make users enter real antenna gain.

@rextended, you surely realize that EIRP is nether power at the end of antenna feeders, it is effective isotropic radiated power which is very much affected (=amplified) by antenna gain. It is easier to calculate it in dB, so: if legal EIRP limit is 30dBm, antenna used is a high gain with 8dBi gain and feeder cables have 1dB loss (if installation has higher feeder loss, it's time to improve it), max legal Tx power on PA output would be (30dBm-8dBi+1dB=) 23dBm. That's 200mW at SMA connector.
This calculation shows that due to low allowed Tx power the main reason for having high gain antenna is to improve Rx - antenna gain works for that as well. And to reduce interference which originates from directions outside main antenna lobe.
-

rextended · Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:13 pm

Add on 6.44rcxx cable loss field on models with connectors (= 1W EIRP, not 1W at sma connector...)

And make users enter real antenna gain.

@rextended, you surely realize that EIRP is nether power at the end of antenna feeders, it is effective isotropic radiated power which is very much affected (=amplified) by antenna gain. It is easier to calculate it in dB, so: if legal EIRP limit is 30dBm, antenna used is a high gain with 8dBi gain and feeder cables have 1dB loss (if installation has higher feeder loss, it's time to improve it), max legal Tx power on PA output would be (30dBm-8dBi+1dB=) 23dBm. That's 200mW at SMA connector.
This calculation shows that due to low allowed Tx power the main reason for having high gain antenna is to improve Rx - antenna gain works for that as well. And to reduce interference which originates from directions outside main antenna lobe.
-

I never wrote "on the antenna connector".
I have shortened the description because are useless, if you read all previous post (also shortened): "[...] (30, 40mt) RF cables [...] The regulatory on UE are: 1W EIRP 1m on front of antenna, NOT 1W at the routerboard CONNECTOR."
30m of RF cable and two connectors <> 1dB of loss

I repeat, but nobody understands, that the point is NOT to transmit out of the norm, but to WARN before do these dangerous changes that compromise the work...

rextended · Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:19 pm

And make users enter real antenna gain.

On assembled device like Dish, SXT, etc. must be fixed

On NetMetal and other connectorized products must manually inserted and MUST ACCEPT decimals, and MUST HAVE cable loss field.

The following values (@5500GHz) are not absolute and change with brand and model or type used.
Lost per connector: 0,235dB (non-soldered connector)
Lost for each 10cm of rf cable: 0,034dB

rextended · Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:37 pm

And if we want to talk about Legality ...

to be used in Europe, the equipment on 5GHz must have 802.11h implemented:
automatic transmission power control TPC and DFS, etc.

TPC is not regulatory-domain setting.
TPC is automatic variable tx-power for each "nanosecond" of transmission.
TPC (also on CPE) increase tx-power for longer CPE, and lower tx-power for closer CPE for transmit RF as low as possible.
This can not be achieved simply forcing tx-power to max allowed on country.

I do not know if MikroTik has it on any article the TPC....

No one single 5GHz HYPERLAN MikroTik device can be used on Europe if the country (like Italy) require fully 802.11h certification...

Or am I wrong?

I apologize if I'm wrong.

muetzekoeln · Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:03 pm

No, it's not "must", it is "shall".

But if you do TPC you are allowed higher max RF power on certain channels.

mkx · Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:21 pm

Add on 6.44rcxx cable loss field on models with connectors (= 1W EIRP, not 1W at sma connector...)

.

I never wrote "on the antenna connector".

No, you asked (implicitly) to allow higher power on sma connector to overcome cable loss. What I tried to show is that unless cables are excessively long, it is very probable that EIRP limits are exceeded already.
Plus ... there's already field to enter antenna gain. Substract cable loss from antenna gain and you'll have what you're asking for.

I agree that any change in SW which degrades service is absolutely not wellcome. However it is injust to fingerpoint at MT because they are (most probably) forced to make their devices compliant to regulations.

rextended · Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:44 am

However it is injust to fingerpoint at MT because they are (most probably) forced to make their devices compliant to regulations.

"shall"? I'm not english, translate yourself from Italian.

Source from Italian GOV:
https://www.mise.gov.it/images/stories/ ... _WiFi.html

Translated:

Frequency Band: 5150 – 5350 MHz
        - EIRP: 200 mW
        - Only inside building
        - TPC & DFS mandatory from 5250 to 5350 MHz

Frequency Band: 5470 – 5725 MHz
        - EIRP: 1W
        - Inside or outside building (no restriction)
        - TPC & DFS mandatory (From 5470 to 5725)

/interface wireless info country-info italy (6.42.11)
(Is not clear if that values are for chain or total tx power from all chain, no single "ac" radio show real tx power like old "a" and "n" radio)
2402-2482/b,g,gn20,gn40(20dBm) [100 mW OK]
2417-2457/g-turbo(20dBm) [100 mW OK]
5170-5250/a,an20,an40,ac20,ac40,ac80,ac160,ac80+80(23dBm)/passive [200 mW OK]
5250-5330/a,an20,an40,ac20,ac40,ac80,ac160,ac80+80(20dBm)/dfs,passive [100 mW? WRONG!!! MAX 23dBm !!! 200 mW ]
5490-5710/a,an20,an40,ac20,ac40,ac80,ac160,ac80+80(27dBm)/dfs,passive [500 mW? WRONG!!! MAX 30dBm !!! 1W]
5190-5310/a-turbo(20dBm)/dfs [WRONG!!! MAX 23dBm !!!]
5180-5300/a-turbo(20dBm)/dfs [WRONG!!! MAX 23dBm !!!]
5520-5680/a-turbo(27dBm)/dfs,passive [500 mW? WRONG!!! MAX 30dBm !!! 1W]
5510-5670/a-turbo(27dBm)/dfs,passive [500 mW? WRONG!!! MAX 30dBm !!! 1W]
902-927/b,g,g-turbo,gn20,gn40(30dBm) ??? I DO NOT FIND ANY NEWS ABOUT THIS: ON ITALY ARE FORBIDDEN, ARE USED BY MOBILE OPERATORS!!!

Using regulatory-domain not set max tx power to 1W (when allowed) but only half 500mW.
MikroTik for not implement TPC simply drop half tx power...
Other competitors allow 1W on distant radio and auto drop till 1mW on near radio when is it's turn... it's TPC.

Again, the point is:
no one force MikroTik to not advertise user of such change...

SimonThomasen · Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:58 pm

2019 and MikroTik LTAP still only connects less than half the times it's rebooted or the LTE interface is disabled/enabled. Or after a full minute of waiting.
My 10 year old Nokia phone connects to 2G/3G after 1-2 seconds. Every single time.

kalamaja · Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:09 pm

2019 and MikroTik LTAP still only connects less than half the times it's rebooted or the LTE interface is disabled/enabled. Or after a full minute of waiting.
My 10 year old Nokia phone connects to 2G/3G after 1-2 seconds. Every single time.

I’ve seen exactly the same symptoms caused by faulty R11e-LTE card. R11e firmware upgrade didn’t help. Contact your seller to replace LtAP-LTE or just R11e-LTE card inside it. Normally it really is able to connect in seconds

VecH · Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:38 am

Where download fix_space.npk for v6.42.11 on device SXT 2nD r3
link https://www.mikrotik.com/download/share/fix_space.npk broken

/system package update> download
          channel: long-term
  current-version: 6.42.10
   latest-version: 6.42.11
           status: ERROR: not enough disk space, 10.2MiB is required and only 5.7MiB is free

Free space was lost after the loss of communication during the update download.
Before that, I downloaded updates without any problems.

emils · Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:09 am

You do not need the fix_space.npk package. Simply reboot the router and it should regain the free space.

mkx · Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:49 am

@Normis wrote in another thread that partial dowloads get erased during reboot.

emils · Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:58 am

New version 6.42.12 has been released in long-term RouterOS channel:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=145243