Hello, I am a regular dota 2 player using Wi-Fi and I have these two routers in my possession:

asus rt-5300ac
mikrotik 4011

I have to decide which of the two to stay with, and sell the other.
I turn to you to confirm if it is possible that the asus has better wifi performance (without stuttering) against the mikrotik. I tried all the shapes and configurations and I couldn't solve those problems with the mikrotik.

The signal is very good, the ccq is from 95 to 100%, but it still shows these symptoms often.
The asus has in favor that it is tri-band.

Anyway, maybe you can give me some configuration advice, or something

I use qos on both routers.
regards
Fernando.

The RB4011 hardware is actually better in each aspect, the problem with Mikrotik is that they use their own wireless driver instead of using the driver provided by Qualcomm. They do that to avoid depending on Qualcomm to update the Linux kernel when MT wants and not when Qualcomm releases a compatible driver.

The ASUS router has an old Broadcom processor which is inferior and has no OpenWRT support due to closed source drivers.

If you want fast and reliable routing speeds go with the Mikrotik.

You can try setting AMSDU Limit and Threshold to 2048, it stopped my hap ac2 from disconnecting my S10e every 5mins.

I would expect the Asus to have better-performing wireless. I would expect a live action gamer to use a wired connection rather than wireless if millisecond latency and jitter are concerns also.

Perhaps we can have a look at your config (/export hide-sensitive file=config)?
Sometimes we can advice some optimizations/improvements...

Perhaps we can have a look at your config (/export hide-sensitive file=config)?
Sometimes we can advice some optimizations/improvements...

# may/30/2020 18:24:23 by RouterOS 6.46.6
# software id = 4TW3-U3LL
#
# model = RB4011iGS+5HacQ2HnD
# serial number = B8E30BC12940
/interface bridge
add admin-mac=C4:AD:34:60:7E:AB auto-mac=no comment=defconf name=bridge
/interface ethernet switch port
set 0 default-vlan-id=0
set 1 default-vlan-id=0
set 2 default-vlan-id=0
set 3 default-vlan-id=0
set 4 default-vlan-id=0
set 5 default-vlan-id=0
set 6 default-vlan-id=0
set 7 default-vlan-id=0
set 8 default-vlan-id=0
set 9 default-vlan-id=0
set 10 default-vlan-id=0
set 11 default-vlan-id=0
/interface list
add comment=defconf name=WAN
add comment=defconf name=LAN
/interface wireless security-profiles
set [ find default=yes ] supplicant-identity=MikroTik
add authentication-types=wpa-psk,wpa2-psk eap-methods="" \
management-protection=allowed mode=dynamic-keys name=2.4 \
supplicant-identity=""
add authentication-types=wpa-psk,wpa2-psk eap-methods="" \
management-protection=allowed mode=dynamic-keys name=5.0 \
supplicant-identity=""
/interface wireless
set [ find default-name=wlan1 ] antenna-gain=0 band=5ghz-n/ac channel-width=\
20/40/80mhz-Ceee country=no_country_set disabled=no distance=indoors \
frequency-mode=manual-txpower installation=indoor mode=ap-bridge name=\
DAGO secondary-channel=auto security-profile=5.0 ssid=Dago \
wireless-protocol=802.11
set [ find default-name=wlan2 ] antenna-gain=0 band=2ghz-g/n country=\
no_country_set disabled=no distance=indoors frequency-mode=manual-txpower \
installation=indoor mode=ap-bridge name=OLIVIA security-profile=2.4 ssid=\
OliviA wireless-protocol=802.11
/ip pool
add name=dhcp ranges=192.168.88.10-192.168.88.254
/ip dhcp-server
add address-pool=dhcp disabled=no interface=bridge name=defconf
/queue tree
add comment="-----------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------" name=UPLOAD parent=\
ether1
add comment="-----------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
-----------------------------------------------------" name=DOWNLOAD \
parent=bridge
add name=steam packet-mark=STEAM parent=DOWNLOAD priority=1
add name=steam_up packet-mark=STEAM parent=UPLOAD priority=1
add name=otros packet-mark=OTROS parent=DOWNLOAD priority=7
add name=otros_up packet-mark=OTROS parent=UPLOAD priority=7
add name=dns packet-mark=DNS parent=DOWNLOAD priority=1
add name=dns_up packet-mark=DNS parent=UPLOAD priority=1
add name=icmp packet-mark=ICMP parent=DOWNLOAD priority=1
add name=icmp_up packet-mark=ICMP parent=UPLOAD priority=1
/queue type
set 9 kind=sfq
/user group
set full policy="local,telnet,ssh,ftp,reboot,read,write,policy,test,winbox,pas\
sword,web,sniff,sensitive,api,romon,dude,tikapp"
/interface bridge port
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether2
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether3
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether4
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether5
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether6
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether7
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether8
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether9
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether10
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=sfp-sfpplus1
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=DAGO
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=OLIVIA
/ip neighbor discovery-settings
set discover-interface-list=LAN
/interface list member
add comment=defconf interface=bridge list=LAN
add comment=defconf interface=ether1 list=WAN
/interface wireless access-list
add comment=FER-I7 interface=DAGO mac-address=2C:FD:A1:CE:65:1F vlan-mode=\
no-tag
add comment=ROBOROCK interface=OLIVIA mac-address=50:EC:50:13:DC:C6 \
vlan-mode=no-tag
add comment=S9 interface=DAGO mac-address=8C:45:00:81:7D:2B vlan-mode=no-tag
add comment=TV32 interface=DAGO mac-address=FC:8F:90:2E:3C:3B vlan-mode=\
no-tag
add comment=FER-I7 interface=OLIVIA mac-address=2C:FD:A1:CE:65:1F vlan-mode=\
no-tag
add comment=TV49 interface=DAGO mac-address=F8:3F:51:CE:88:5E vlan-mode=\
no-tag
/ip address
add address=192.168.88.1/24 comment=defconf interface=ether2 network=\
192.168.88.0
/ip dhcp-client
add comment=defconf disabled=no interface=ether1
/ip dhcp-server network
add address=192.168.88.0/24 comment=defconf gateway=192.168.88.1
/ip dns
set allow-remote-requests=yes
/ip dns static
add address=192.168.88.1 comment=defconf name=router.lan
add address=127.0.0.1 name=ad-g.doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=ad.doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=ad.mo.doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=ad.youtube.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=ads.doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=ads.youtube.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=akamaiedge.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=akamaitechnologies.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=analytic-google.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=apis.google.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=clients1.google.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=googleadapis.l.google.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=googleads.g.doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=googleads4.g.doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=googleadservices.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=i1.ytimg.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=pagead.googlesyndication.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=pagead.l.doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=pagead1.googlesyndication.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=pagead2.googlesyndication.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=pixel.moatads.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=pubads.g.doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=r1---sn-vgqsen7z.googlevideo.com
add address=127.0.0.1 name=ads2.msads.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=a.ads2.msads.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=b.ads2.msads.net
/ip firewall filter
add action=accept chain=input comment=\
"defconf: accept established,related,untracked" connection-state=\
established,related,untracked
add action=drop chain=input comment="defconf: drop invalid" connection-state=\
invalid
add action=accept chain=input comment="defconf: accept ICMP" protocol=icmp
add action=accept chain=input comment=\
"defconf: accept to local loopback (for CAPsMAN)" dst-address=127.0.0.1
add action=drop chain=input comment="defconf: drop all not coming from LAN" \
in-interface-list=!LAN
add action=accept chain=forward comment="defconf: accept in ipsec policy" \
ipsec-policy=in,ipsec
add action=accept chain=forward comment="defconf: accept out ipsec policy" \
ipsec-policy=out,ipsec
add action=fasttrack-connection chain=forward comment="defconf: fasttrack" \
connection-state=established,related disabled=yes
add action=accept chain=forward comment=\
"defconf: accept established,related, untracked" connection-state=\
established,related,untracked
add action=drop chain=forward comment="defconf: drop invalid" \
connection-state=invalid
add action=drop chain=forward comment=\
"defconf: drop all from WAN not DSTNATed" connection-nat-state=!dstnat \
connection-state=new in-interface-list=WAN
/ip firewall mangle
add action=mark-connection chain=prerouting comment=DNS dst-port=53 \
new-connection-mark=DNS passthrough=yes protocol=udp
add action=mark-packet chain=prerouting connection-mark=DNS new-packet-mark=\
DNS passthrough=no
add action=mark-connection chain=prerouting comment=STEAM dst-port=\
27000-27100,4380 new-connection-mark=STEAM passthrough=yes protocol=udp
add action=mark-packet chain=prerouting connection-mark=STEAM \
new-packet-mark=STEAM passthrough=no
add action=mark-connection chain=prerouting comment=ICMP new-connection-mark=\
ICMP passthrough=yes protocol=icmp
add action=mark-packet chain=prerouting connection-mark=ICMP new-packet-mark=\
ICMP passthrough=no
add action=mark-connection chain=prerouting comment=OTROS \
new-connection-mark=OTROS passthrough=yes
add action=mark-packet chain=prerouting connection-mark=OTROS \
new-packet-mark=OTROS packet-mark="" passthrough=no
/ip firewall nat
add action=masquerade chain=srcnat comment="defconf: masquerade" \
ipsec-policy=out,none out-interface-list=WAN
/ip firewall service-port
set ftp disabled=yes
set tftp disabled=yes
set irc disabled=yes
set h323 disabled=yes
set sip disabled=yes
set pptp disabled=yes
set dccp disabled=yes
set sctp disabled=yes
/ip service
set telnet disabled=yes
set ftp disabled=yes
set www disabled=yes
set ssh disabled=yes
set api disabled=yes
set api-ssl disabled=yes
/ip upnp
set enabled=yes
/ip upnp interfaces
add interface=bridge type=internal
add interface=ether1 type=external
/system clock
set time-zone-name=America/Argentina/Salta
/system leds
set 0 disabled=yes
add disabled=yes interface=OLIVIA leds=,,,, type=wireless-signal-strength
add disabled=yes interface=OLIVIA leds="" type=interface-transmit
add disabled=yes interface=OLIVIA leds="" type=interface-receive
/tool mac-server
set allowed-interface-list=LAN
/tool mac-server mac-winbox
set allowed-interface-list=LAN

The RB4011 hardware is actually better in each aspect, the problem with Mikrotik is that they use their own wireless driver instead of using the driver provided by Qualcomm. They do that to avoid depending on Qualcomm to update the Linux kernel when MT wants and not when Qualcomm releases a compatible driver.

The ASUS router has an old Broadcom processor which is inferior and has no OpenWRT support due to closed source drivers.

If you want fast and reliable routing speeds go with the Mikrotik.

You can try setting AMSDU Limit and Threshold to 2048, it stopped my hap ac2 from disconnecting my S10e every 5mins.

Hello! thanks for answering. In other words, can openwrt be installed on this mikrotik? it is convenient?

On the other hand, I use the google translator since I am Argentine.

I did not find the configuration that mentions me, is it in 6.46.6?

In the previous post paste all my configuration, in case you want me to suggest something.

The asus has mime, bearforming and 3 different bands. Will this make a difference?

regards

Fernando.

/ip address
add address=192.168.88.1/24 comment=defconf interface=ether2 network=\
192.168.88.0

This is wrong.

your main ip should be on the bridge and not on an interface, when that interface is part of a bridge, same as you correctly configured DHCP server

/ip dhcp-server
add address-pool=dhcp disabled=no interface=bridge name=defconf

so correct should be:

/ip address
add address=192.168.88.1/24 comment=defconf interface=bridge network=\
192.168.88.0

The RB4011 hardware is actually better in each aspect, the problem with Mikrotik is that they use their own wireless driver instead of using the driver provided by Qualcomm. They do that to avoid depending on Qualcomm to update the Linux kernel when MT wants and not when Qualcomm releases a compatible driver.

The ASUS router has an old Broadcom processor which is inferior and has no OpenWRT support due to closed source drivers.

If you want fast and reliable routing speeds go with the Mikrotik.

You can try setting AMSDU Limit and Threshold to 2048, it stopped my hap ac2 from disconnecting my S10e every 5mins.

Hello! thanks for answering. In other words, can openwrt be installed on this mikrotik? it is convenient?

On the other hand, I use the google translator since I am Argentine.

I did not find the configuration that mentions me, is it in 6.46.6?

In the previous post paste all my configuration, in case you want me to suggest something.

The asus has mime, bearforming and 3 different bands. Will this make a difference?

regards

Fernando.

No, no se puede instalar OpenWRT en el RB4011 pero puedes instalar el firmware Merlin en el Asus para desbloquear más opciones
No, you can't install OpenWRT in the RB4011
PD: actualmente están portando el OpenWRT pero para el AC2

[/quote]

This is wrong.

your main ip should be on the bridge and not on an interface, when that interface is part of a bridge, same as you correctly configured DHCP server

/ip dhcp-server
add address-pool=dhcp disabled=no interface=bridge name=defconf

so correct should be:

/ip address
add address=192.168.88.1/24 comment=defconf interface=bridge network=\
192.168.88.0

[/quote]
Thank you!! Could you tell me if it's okay now? that configuration had been made by the same mikrotik


# model = RB4011iGS+5HacQ2HnD
# serial number = B8E30BC12940
/interface bridge
add admin-mac=C4:AD:34:60:7E:AB auto-mac=no comment=defconf name=bridge
/interface ethernet switch port
set 0 default-vlan-id=0
set 1 default-vlan-id=0
set 2 default-vlan-id=0
set 3 default-vlan-id=0
set 4 default-vlan-id=0
set 5 default-vlan-id=0
set 6 default-vlan-id=0
set 7 default-vlan-id=0
set 8 default-vlan-id=0
set 9 default-vlan-id=0
set 10 default-vlan-id=0
set 11 default-vlan-id=0
/interface list
add comment=defconf name=WAN
add comment=defconf name=LAN
/interface wireless security-profiles
set [ find default=yes ] supplicant-identity=MikroTik
add authentication-types=wpa-psk,wpa2-psk eap-methods="" \
management-protection=allowed mode=dynamic-keys name=2.4 \
supplicant-identity=""
add authentication-types=wpa-psk,wpa2-psk eap-methods="" \
management-protection=allowed mode=dynamic-keys name=5.0 \
supplicant-identity=""
/interface wireless
set [ find default-name=wlan1 ] antenna-gain=0 band=5ghz-n/ac channel-width=\
20/40/80mhz-Ceee country=no_country_set disabled=no distance=indoors \
frequency-mode=manual-txpower installation=indoor mode=ap-bridge name=\
DAGO secondary-channel=auto security-profile=5.0 ssid=Dago \
wireless-protocol=802.11
set [ find default-name=wlan2 ] antenna-gain=0 band=2ghz-g/n country=\
no_country_set disabled=no distance=indoors frequency-mode=manual-txpower \
installation=indoor mode=ap-bridge name=OLIVIA security-profile=2.4 ssid=\
OliviA wireless-protocol=802.11
/ip pool
add name=dhcp ranges=192.168.88.10-192.168.88.254
/ip dhcp-server
add address-pool=dhcp disabled=no interface=bridge name=defconf
/queue tree
add comment="-----------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------" name=UPLOAD parent=\
ether1
add comment="-----------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
-----------------------------------------------------" name=DOWNLOAD \
parent=bridge
add name=steam packet-mark=STEAM parent=DOWNLOAD priority=1
add name=steam_up packet-mark=STEAM parent=UPLOAD priority=1
add name=otros packet-mark=OTROS parent=DOWNLOAD priority=7
add name=otros_up packet-mark=OTROS parent=UPLOAD priority=7
add name=dns packet-mark=DNS parent=DOWNLOAD priority=1
add name=dns_up packet-mark=DNS parent=UPLOAD priority=1
add name=icmp packet-mark=ICMP parent=DOWNLOAD priority=1
add name=icmp_up packet-mark=ICMP parent=UPLOAD priority=1
/queue type
set 9 kind=sfq
/user group
set full policy="local,telnet,ssh,ftp,reboot,read,write,policy,test,winbox,pas\
sword,web,sniff,sensitive,api,romon,dude,tikapp"
/interface bridge port
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether2
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether3
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether4
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether5
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether6
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether7
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether8
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether9
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether10
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=sfp-sfpplus1
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=DAGO
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=OLIVIA
/ip neighbor discovery-settings
set discover-interface-list=LAN
/interface list member
add comment=defconf interface=bridge list=LAN
add comment=defconf interface=ether1 list=WAN
/interface wireless access-list
add comment=FER-I7 interface=DAGO mac-address=2C:FD:A1:CE:65:1F vlan-mode=\
no-tag
add comment=ROBOROCK interface=OLIVIA mac-address=50:EC:50:13:DC:C6 \
vlan-mode=no-tag
add comment=S9 interface=DAGO mac-address=8C:45:00:81:7D:2B vlan-mode=no-tag
add comment=TV32 interface=DAGO mac-address=FC:8F:90:2E:3C:3B vlan-mode=\
no-tag
add comment=FER-I7 interface=OLIVIA mac-address=2C:FD:A1:CE:65:1F vlan-mode=\
no-tag
add comment=TV49 interface=DAGO mac-address=F8:3F:51:CE:88:5E vlan-mode=\
no-tag
/ip address
add address=192.168.88.1/24 comment=defconf interface=bridge network=\
192.168.88.0
/ip dhcp-client
add comment=defconf disabled=no interface=ether1
/ip dhcp-server network
add address=192.168.88.0/24 comment=defconf gateway=192.168.88.1
/ip dns
set allow-remote-requests=yes
/ip dns static
add address=192.168.88.1 comment=defconf name=router.lan
add address=127.0.0.1 name=ad-g.doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=ad.doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=ad.mo.doubleclick.net
add address=127.0.0.1 name=ad.youtube.com

/ip firewall filter
add action=accept chain=input comment=\
"defconf: accept established,related,untracked" connection-state=\
established,related,untracked
add action=drop chain=input comment="defconf: drop invalid" connection-state=\
invalid
add action=accept chain=input comment="defconf: accept ICMP" protocol=icmp
add action=accept chain=input comment=\
"defconf: accept to local loopback (for CAPsMAN)" dst-address=127.0.0.1
add action=drop chain=input comment="defconf: drop all not coming from LAN" \
in-interface-list=!LAN
add action=accept chain=forward comment="defconf: accept in ipsec policy" \
ipsec-policy=in,ipsec
add action=accept chain=forward comment="defconf: accept out ipsec policy" \
ipsec-policy=out,ipsec
add action=fasttrack-connection chain=forward comment="defconf: fasttrack" \
connection-state=established,related disabled=yes
add action=accept chain=forward comment=\
"defconf: accept established,related, untracked" connection-state=\
established,related,untracked
add action=drop chain=forward comment="defconf: drop invalid" \
connection-state=invalid
add action=drop chain=forward comment=\
"defconf: drop all from WAN not DSTNATed" connection-nat-state=!dstnat \
connection-state=new in-interface-list=WAN
/ip firewall mangle
add action=mark-connection chain=prerouting comment=DNS dst-port=53 \
new-connection-mark=DNS passthrough=yes protocol=udp
add action=mark-packet chain=prerouting connection-mark=DNS new-packet-mark=\
DNS passthrough=no
add action=mark-connection chain=prerouting comment=STEAM dst-port=\
27000-27100,4380 new-connection-mark=STEAM passthrough=yes protocol=udp
add action=mark-packet chain=prerouting connection-mark=STEAM \
new-packet-mark=STEAM passthrough=no
add action=mark-connection chain=prerouting comment=ICMP new-connection-mark=\
ICMP passthrough=yes protocol=icmp
add action=mark-packet chain=prerouting connection-mark=ICMP new-packet-mark=\
ICMP passthrough=no
add action=mark-connection chain=prerouting comment=OTROS \
new-connection-mark=OTROS passthrough=yes
add action=mark-packet chain=prerouting connection-mark=OTROS \
new-packet-mark=OTROS packet-mark="" passthrough=no
/ip firewall nat
add action=masquerade chain=srcnat comment="defconf: masquerade" \
ipsec-policy=out,none out-interface-list=WAN
/ip firewall service-port
set ftp disabled=yes
set tftp disabled=yes
set irc disabled=yes
set h323 disabled=yes
set sip disabled=yes
set pptp disabled=yes
set dccp disabled=yes
set sctp disabled=yes
/ip service
set telnet disabled=yes
set ftp disabled=yes
set www disabled=yes
set ssh disabled=yes
set api disabled=yes
set api-ssl disabled=yes
/ip upnp
set enabled=yes
/ip upnp interfaces
add interface=bridge type=internal
add interface=ether1 type=external
/system clock
set time-zone-name=America/Argentina/Salta
/system leds
set 0 disabled=yes
add disabled=yes interface=OLIVIA leds=,,,, type=wireless-signal-strength
add disabled=yes interface=OLIVIA leds="" type=interface-transmit
add disabled=yes interface=OLIVIA leds="" type=interface-receive
/tool mac-server
set allowed-interface-list=LAN
/tool mac-server mac-winbox
set allowed-interface-list=LAN

IP on bridge now looks correct.

Do past you code in code tags. Select you code text a click the code button </>

Perhaps we can have a look at your config (/export hide-sensitive file=config)?
Sometimes we can advice some optimizations/improvements...

any suggestions friend?

any suggestions friend?

• Select the country code. That will also handle correct antenna gain.
• Select channels manually, don't use auto
• Only use WPA2-AES
• Basic rates 12, 24
• Supported rates 12 and up
• Multicast helper full

any suggestions friend?

• Select the country code. That will also handle correct antenna gain.
• Select channels manually, don't use auto
• Only use WPA2-AES
• Basic rates 12, 24
• Supported rates 12 and up
• Multicast helper full

If I configure my country with the antenna gain I lose a lot of power, is not this worse for my wifi?
the noise goes up from 35 to 55db approx

I don't believe in a one trick pony: too much transmission power is bad (and not only from a regulations point of view). You should always set the country code, and use as many accesspoints as necessary to have a decent WiFi coverage.

• Basic rates 12, 24
• Supported rates 12 and up

You should only do that, if your APs are very close to each other.
My roaming experience has improved a lot after switching from basic 12,24 to basic 6,12,24: It allows the client to keep a stable connection to the old AP (at a low rate) while scanning for a better one. Stable+slow is a much better user experience than unstable with retransmissions.
Additionally, having basic 6 available will improve broad-/multicast reliability even without multicast-helper, this can improve power usage on mobile devices.

tl;dr: Raising basic rates to 12+ can help in some cases, but you shouldn't generally recommend doing it.