I'm aware that there are products now available using Wave 2 chipsets; hAP AC2, cAP AC, RB4011. However, does anyone know if the MU-MIMO functions or beamforming are currently supported and functioning in routerOS? And what I'm even more interested in is in the devices that are only 2x2 MIMO, is there any gain in transmissions with MU-MIMO when transmitting to other 2x2 devices, or is it virtually identical to performance on non MU-MIMO devices?

I'm aware that there are products now available using Wave 2 chipsets; hAP AC2, cAP AC, RB4011. However, does anyone know if the MU-MIMO functions or beamforming are currently supported and functioning in routerOS? And what I'm even more interested in is in the devices that are only 2x2 MIMO, is there any gain in transmissions with MU-MIMO when transmitting to other 2x2 devices, or is it virtually identical to performance on non MU-MIMO devices?

Mikrotiks Wireless Driver that is done by there own, is missing all Wave2 features and in the past it lost mich of function, what was available for 802.11n

- they don’t benefit with new Chipsets
- speed with Wave 2 Chipsets is worse than older ac Hardware
- they incompatible to some Intel and Apple devices

Your Options
1. wait for Christmas
2. Buy something else

- they incompatible to some Intel and Apple devices

Not true, new betas fix the issue with Apple and the issue is with Apple new driver, not RouterOS driver.

- they incompatible to some Intel and Apple devices

Not true, new betas fix the issue with Apple and the issue is with Apple new driver, not RouterOS driver.

Ok, the apple is solved. And the rest?

You are right, that MikroTik made wireless driver doesn't have Wave2 support, so new chipset benefits are not there. We are working on a new driver.

You are right, that MikroTik made wireless driver doesn't have Wave2 support, so new chipset benefits are not there. We are working on a new driver.

Will the new driver appear in version 6.X or do we need to wait for the legendary version 7?

You are right, that MikroTik made wireless driver doesn't have Wave2 support, so new chipset benefits are not there. We are working on a new driver.

Will the new driver appear in version 6.X or do we need to wait for the legendary version 7?

I have the same question

V7 will fix all issues Release date TBD

My RB4011 is performing well but nothing like the Wave2 stuff from other manufacturers.

Sad

You are right, that MikroTik made wireless driver doesn't have Wave2 support, so new chipset benefits are not there. We are working on a new driver.

Normis,

Do you have any kind of estimate on when we could expect the new driver with support for Wave 2? We are looking at doing a large project, and choice of hardware is going to weigh heavily on whether these features are (or will be soon) present.

To the other folks, whether you feel it's deserved or not, snide comments about v7 are not going to get you results. Please be respectful.

- they incompatible to some Intel and Apple devices

Not true, new betas fix the issue with Apple and the issue is with Apple new driver, not RouterOS driver.

I have done picture with HP Laptop and 4011 still 54MBit, IPhone connects with full speed, not solved in actual Beta!

Do you have any kind of estimate on when we could expect the new driver with support for Wave 2? We are looking at doing a large project, and choice of hardware is going to weigh heavily on whether these features are (or will be soon) present.

Well, I live in a world of public tender. Public institutions are advised by some "vicarious agent" who are heavily influenced about what they sell. The consultants usually get 10% of the money the winner of the tender charges for its solution. So guess what those so "neutral consultants" write in their tender documents?

Of course: They don´t say vendor C, A, E, or H. But they directly get the prefilled tender documents right from the sales agents of the vendors. They copy whole parts, sometimes from vendor C for tender 1. For the tender afterwards they take the text from A, then perhaps from A, or sometimes from H.

Those people have never heard about M. If you look at the tender documents you´ll find the usual basic requirements, i.e. they want "wave 2", they want "beamforming"; even if they don´t know what this actual does. So, what I like to see is that MikroTik recruit some programmers to get those features up and running as this will simply maximize your revenue.

- they incompatible to some Intel and Apple devices

Not true, new betas fix the issue with Apple and the issue is with Apple new driver, not RouterOS driver.

I have done picture with HP Laptop and 4011 still 54MBit, IPhone connects with full speed, not solved in actual Beta!

have you checked the changelog?

- they incompatible to some Intel and Apple devices

Not true, new betas fix the issue with Apple and the issue is with Apple new driver, not RouterOS driver.

I have done picture with HP Laptop and 4011 still 54MBit, IPhone connects with full speed, not solved in actual Beta!

have you checked the changelog?

If there is something done for iPhone (i have an older one) it is not on Changelog:

*) wireless - added new "installation" parameter to specify router's location;
*) wireless - improved signal strength at low TX power on LHG 5 ac, LHG 5 ac XL and LDF 5 ac ("/system routerboard upgrade" required);
*) wireless - improved system stability for all ARM devices with wireless;
*) wireless - removed G/N support for 2484MHz in "japan" regulatory domain;
*) wireless - report last seen IP address in RADIUS accounting messages;
*) wireless - show indoor/outdoor frequency limitations under "/interface wireless info country-info " command;

But bigger Problem is Intel Hardware. A new Wave 2 Router and it is impossible to deliver more then 20Mbit real TCP to an new Laptop..... @5Ghz,

Exactly my point. The beta with iPhone fixes is not public yet. Please wait a little bit. it's being released today

Even planning for the same day seems impossible for mikrotik.......

Exactly my point. The beta with iPhone fixes is not public yet. Please wait a little bit. it's being released today

Don't be so harsh. Issues come up in development, in life, ...

The beta with iPhone fixes is not public yet. Please wait a little bit. it's being released today.

Thank you Normis. If you guys could a write up on what the juicy details were, that would be great.

Exactly my point. The beta with iPhone fixes is not public yet. Please wait a little bit. it's being released today

Normis,

Seems this thread is getting away from the original topic...

That being said, did you have any details on when we could expect a new wireless driver in rOS?

Anything new? I was at MUM, but I did not noticed anything about this...

What is the current status of wave 2 features in Mikrotik wireless drivers?

Nothing changed

they are working now on the new Audience (RBD25G-5HPacQD2HPnD) will be ready in couple weeks,
but not sure if Wave2 will be supported, so its only for home usage, far from competitors
and an easy capsman setup tool it's also missing, but will come for sure in x years

What is the current status of wave 2 features in Mikrotik wireless drivers?

Most of the features are implemented, but MU-MIMO is WIP

Nothing changed

Any validity of the statement?

Most of the features are implemented, but MU-MIMO is WIP

Thank you for the update. What features have been implemented for now? May I ask when you plan to release those new drivers within new beta RouterOS versions? Will we be able to test those drivers with a new (optional) wireless driver package as in the past?

which featues are missing now? we already released the driver update in last betas.
160MHz works, like Reinis said, only MU-MIMO is not implemented as the only remaining Wave2 feature.

which features are missing now?

MU-MIMO

160MHz does not work in the US, presumably because Mikrotik did not complete the necessary testing required.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/kdb/forms/FT ... P&id=27155

which featues are missing now? we already released the driver update in last betas.

Great, so that´s the driver update, I assume?

=>

Version 6.46beta16 has been released.
*) wireless - fixed 802.11n rate selection when managed by CAPsMAN;
*) wireless - improved 802.11ac stability for all ARM devices with wireless;
*) wireless - improved U-APSD (WMM Power Save) support for 802.11e;

Yes, "stability" means a lot of improvements under the hood, including 160MHz in supported regions.
Yes, like I said, MU-MIMO is the only missing thing right now. Wave2, to my knowledge, doesn't have any other things RouterOS doesn't support already.

When can we use mu-mimo?

Does wAP ac support VHT160?

160MHz does not work in the US, presumably because Mikrotik did not complete the necessary testing required.

Sorry, but we are still in the process of certifying for US (U-NII-2), that's why you cannot choose any frequencies with the 160MHz configuration when country is set to united-states-3.

Does wAP ac support VHT160?

No

When can we use mu-mimo?

In RouterOS? Never .... or in year 2030....
Mikrotik don't listening us, dont listening clients...

Same can say about Beamforming, Mesh, new hotspot, 802.11k/v/r

CAPsMAN and HotSpot is outdatet, so we forced change Mikrotik and choose EdgeCore solutions for WiFi. More stable, more features.

Mikrotik... what happend with you?

Yes, like I said, MU-MIMO is the only missing thing right now. Wave2, to my knowledge, doesn't have any other things RouterOS doesn't support already.

Will MU-MIMO be supported in V7 only or in V6, aswell?

Most of the features are implemented, but MU-MIMO is WIP

Hello Reinis, what is the current status of your MU-MIMO implementation?

normis or Reinis,

Do you have a list of AC devices that will receive the MU-MIMO functionality when the driver is updated to support it? Will all MikroTik AC devices support it? Or certain ones?

I'm ok with it not currently supporting it, but will in the future. Back when 802.11g came out, if you had a lot of B devices connecting to it, it would degrade the performance of the entire network. I'd assume this will be a continually trend with new WiFi features. The point is client devices are the weak link. And client devices supporting the enhanced features don't get mass adoption till later on in the specifications lifespan. Unless you can control what devices are connecting to the APs, I feel it's not going to show it's full usefulness till MU-MIMO becomes a standard feature of even the cheapest of client devices.

I prefer using MikroTik APs over other brands. I'd choose a MikroTik over another brand that currently supports MU-MIMO, if I knew MU-MIMO would eventually come to the MikroTik device.

And spectral scan? Is a dream?

Mikrotik - What is the current status of your MU-MIMO implementation?
Also, when will it be "certified" as Wave 2? All recent tenders are requiring Wave 2 products, and this is holding us back from pitching Mikrotik.

it is being developed at the same time as the spectral scan

it is being developed at the same time as the spectral scan

Maybe

06/2020: Still no MU-MIMO...

Yes, "stability" means a lot of improvements under the hood, including 160MHz in supported regions.
Yes, like I said, MU-MIMO is the only missing thing right now. Wave2, to my knowledge, doesn't have any other things RouterOS doesn't support already.

Hi Normis, can we expect single user MIMO beamforming , before the step up to the much more complex MU-MIMO?
See : https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/80 ... /ch04.html
Beamforming has its own benefits, even without the MU-MIMO.

DTIM setting, and fast roaming are just options?

I think the most important thing is stability. As for others, they are still acceptable. The latest version is not stable. In my impression, the previous version is very stable.

I think the most important thing is stability. As for others, they are still acceptable. The latest version is not stable. In my impression, the previous version is very stable.

Fully agree. Stability is a must. The rest is nice to have. For my experience the 6.45.6 is the most stable version. (They lost some stability in the transition to the 6.45.8 LT version)
Working hard to tune the Mikrotik wifi, and not accepting very poor results some get, without tweaking the parameters we already have.
But the battle to get the same performance as other brands is not easy. One can fix it for a specific static situation, but not make it a self-adjusting system.

And it is not the big jump to Wave2 , even with the optional MU-MIMO that we need. Smaller steps could help us.

After hearing Normis "the only thing missing for Wave-2 is MU-MIMO", and Strods with his view on the Winbox user interface.
And after reading all this stuff about 802.11ac, there are quite some things missing in the Mikrotik (https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/80 ... index.html)

- single user beamforming (3 dB gain in SNR)
- air time fairness (without fairness a 300 Mbps and a 100 Mbps competing for airtime will have an effective interface rate of 75 Mbps. With air time fairness its 150 Mbps and 50 Mbps. This is only a mild example, 400 Mbps + 6 Mbps makes it a dramatic 6 Mbps for each without air time fairness)
- proper WMM implementation. It doesn't work on DSCP without specific mangle rules.
- WMM parameter setting (like in any other brand cheap AP)
- "adaptive aggregation", now it is fixed for all clients and fixed over time. It should vary per client, also with any interference fluctuation.
- A-PMDU parameters cannot be set. (Other brands let you set the buffer size and the max number of A-MSDU packed together)
- aggressive MCS-rate adjustment
- roaming support. (At least let us reduce the TXpower of the 2.4 GHz band with the GUI, to favor the 5 GHz band connection)

It's hard to compete with other brands in speed and stability with Mikrotiks simplified implementation.
(But by doing it you learn a lot about 802.11 )

After hearing Normis "the only thing missing for Wave-2 is MU-MIMO", and Strods with his view on the Winbox user interface.
And after reading all this stuff about 802.11ac, there are quite some things missing in the Mikrotik (https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/80 ... index.html)

- single user beamforming (3 dB gain in SNR)
- air time fairness (without fairness a 300 Mbps and a 100 Mbps competing for airtime will have an effective interface rate of 75 Mbps. With air time fairness its 150 Mbps and 50 Mbps. This is only a mild example, 400 Mbps + 6 Mbps makes it a dramatic 6 Mbps for each without air time fairness)
- proper WMM implementation. It doesn't work on DSCP without specific mangle rules.
- WMM parameter setting (like in any other brand cheap AP)
- "adaptive aggregation", now it is fixed for all clients and fixed over time. It should vary per client, also with any interference fluctuation.
- A-PMDU parameters cannot be set. (Other brands let you set the buffer size and the max number of A-MSDU packed together)
- aggressive MCS-rate adjustment
- roaming support. (At least let us reduce the TXpower of the 2.4 GHz band with the GUI, to favor the 5 GHz band connection)

It's hard to compete with other brands in speed and stability with Mikrotiks simplified implementation.
(But by doing it you learn a lot about 802.11 )

@bpwl - the above is 100% correct ..... nice post

@mozerd ... what is the need to quote "previous post" just write "nice post"?
Do you know the funcionality of "post reply" button?

@mozerd ... what is the need to quote "previous post" just write "nice post"?
Do you know the funcionality of "post reply" button?

@BartoszP --Because what I quoted from @bpwl post is what I supported and that is what I wanted to emphasize.

BartoszP, I apologize to you if I hurt your feelings.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=145047&p=742089&hil ... mo#p741741

What is the current status of wave 2 features in Mikrotik wireless drivers?

Most of the features are implemented, but MU-MIMO is WIP
[...]

1 year later... So?

@mozerd ... what is the need to quote "previous post" just write "nice post"?
Do you know the funcionality of "post reply" button?

Hey it works!!!
I for one appreciated hearing Mozerds, confirmation and support for one our cherished members bpwl. Whether he used the quote function or not is completely moot (irrelevant like your post)!

This is where I reiterate (for smart, kewl, sexy (not sure which way he/she leans) Normis) that MT should hire bpwl to work with the MT coders in modifying and improving the MT wifi and associated written documentation. For all our sanity!!

I think the most important thing is stability. As for others, they are still acceptable. The latest version is not stable. In my impression, the previous version is very stable.

Fully agree. Stability is a must. The rest is nice to have. For my experience the 6.45.6 is the most stable version. (They lost some stability in the transition to the 6.45.8 LT version)
Working hard to tune the Mikrotik wifi, and not accepting very poor results some get, without tweaking the parameters we already have.
But the battle to get the same performance as other brands is not easy. One can fix it for a specific static situation, but not make it a self-adjusting system.

And it is not the big jump to Wave2 , even with the optional MU-MIMO that we need. Smaller steps could help us.

After hearing Normis "the only thing missing for Wave-2 is MU-MIMO", and Strods with his view on the Winbox user interface.
And after reading all this stuff about 802.11ac, there are quite some things missing in the Mikrotik (https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/80 ... index.html)

- single user beamforming (3 dB gain in SNR)
- air time fairness (without fairness a 300 Mbps and a 100 Mbps competing for airtime will have an effective interface rate of 75 Mbps. With air time fairness its 150 Mbps and 50 Mbps. This is only a mild example, 400 Mbps + 6 Mbps makes it a dramatic 6 Mbps for each without air time fairness)
- proper WMM implementation. It doesn't work on DSCP without specific mangle rules.
- WMM parameter setting (like in any other brand cheap AP)
- "adaptive aggregation", now it is fixed for all clients and fixed over time. It should vary per client, also with any interference fluctuation.
- A-PMDU parameters cannot be set. (Other brands let you set the buffer size and the max number of A-MSDU packed together)
- aggressive MCS-rate adjustment
- roaming support. (At least let us reduce the TXpower of the 2.4 GHz band with the GUI, to favor the 5 GHz band connection)

It's hard to compete with other brands in speed and stability with Mikrotiks simplified implementation.
(But by doing it you learn a lot about 802.11 )

So those other threads were you and I go back and forth about how Mikrotik can't touch my other vendor in wireless...
How I was pissed I wasted so much time building all this cool stuff in caps-man to more or less abandon it later...

I'm disappointed!!!

Remember the times when Mikrotik was innovating and using recent hardware and their best software expertise to introduce killer features like NSTREME or NSTREME dual? There was no competition at that time, being able to push 100MBit/s over wifi was just awesome. But then they probably started cutting corners and ended up with worse hardware than competition, without proper features like spectral scan and hardware TDMA timing, requiring kludges like NV2 to get somewhat working TDMA. 802.11ac was first generation of Mikrotik hardware that just sucked. Limited power control, NV2 or NSTREME didn't work properly, bandwidth issues, no spectral scan... some issues were fixed, but many things are still problematic to this day or completely missing. More wrong hardware decisions happened that caused flopping ports on RB3011 that are still an issue to this day, never to be fixed but hey, it's STILL selling, with all these flaws. Then trainwreck called RB4011 appeared, with flaky wifi that couldn't even do what spec sheet said, with endless stability issues, reboots, freezing and all that nasty stuff. Reality is that Mikrotik is now 3 generations behind in WIFI hardware and WIFI chipsets on current Routerboards can't be used to their full potential thanks to custom driver issues and missing features. Until recently, there was still one good reason left to buy Mikrotik: the price. Being so much cheaper, you could tolerate some issues. But recently it seems prices are going up for new products as well, despite the increasing amount of issues. $200-$300 home routers? wtf? And what you get is 16MBs of flash, how long until ROS will simply not fit. Stupid cutting of corners everywhere, especially on $200+ devices. Smells like planned obsolescence to me...

Thankfully there are still some products that show some hope like 60GHz, CRS series and ROS performance running natively on x86 hardware. But right now, future of Mikrotik WIFI doesn't look good, unless some change in direction happens. As soon as possible. Because year ago was already too late.

+1!

++1

+++1

Guess I'll pile on too. We need better WiFi.

802.11ac support, even wave 1 ?
Still wonder if this is implemented as "n+" or as "ac".
VHT MCS parameters are somewhat hidden (need to set 'Data rates' on "configured", for VHT parameters to appear under 'HT')
There are A-MSDU limits, but that's for 802.11n. Can we do anything on this in 802.11ac ??? Is AMSDU implemented as ac (11454bytes), or as n (7935bytes) ?
A-MSDU and A-MPDU aggregation is important for lower overhead and higher throughput, certainly at high (866Mbps) interface data rates.
Max A-MPDU size in 802.11ac is 1MByte, versus 65535bytes in 802.11n.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=165479#p813552

EDIT: well it even announces in the beacons that for 802.11n and ac MKT only uses 3839bytes as A-MSDU. Also the A-MPDU is lower than the IEEE standard
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=165698#p817088

Had to loan out my Ruckus R610.

Reconfigured an Audience to be the WAP (cap) for my house.
Its 3 radios
2.4 2x2
5.0 2x2
5.8 4x4

All the radios are serving clients... and between me working and the kid in Zoom class... not dropping yet.
I am on the 4x4 (5.8) radio and he happens to be in the 2x2 (5.0) radio.

Hi, what's the status on MU-MIMO?

Nothing changed, it's still completely non-existent in Mikrotik universe...

Used the audience again for a few weeks. It seemed better...

But the new R550 which is WiFi6 really trounced it.

The audience is louder and let's 5ghz things connect farther away... But it slows down everything.