Must cAP XL AC be installed on ceiling?

uberwebguru · Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:56 am

As we all know, no one wants to be wiring the house every time there needs to be a need for a new device
The cAP XL AC is said be a ceiling access point, meaning will require carrying wires in the ceiling and installing there

#1
can i use this as regular access point and place on a desk or floor?

#2
i get i can connect first access point via wired to the CCR router but for next access points to add, can the access point be connected using wifi only or must it always be wired from another access point to work?

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:00 am

1. You can mount it any way you like, the wifi radiation pattern is roughly spherical for indoor devices
2. Yes, there are several ways to do this, with repeater mode (speed will be 50%) or using 2GHz only for link between devices (your clients only can use 5GHz then)

uberwebguru · Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:41 pm

1. You can mount it any way you like, the wifi radiation pattern is roughly spherical for indoor devices
2. Yes, there are several ways to do this, with repeater mode (speed will be 50%) or using 2GHz only for link between devices (your clients only can use 5GHz then)

cool thanks
why is it that way? is like saying if you connect a computer to an access point, it will use 50% of the AC speed since 2GHz to connect and now can use 5GHz to browe internet?
why cant AC just connect wireless and re-broadcast 2 and 5GHz?
Is this a mikrotik thing or are all AC like this? connecting them wirelessly makes them loose 50% speed?

Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:55 pm

All repeaters lose some speed while doing this re-broadcast. Just not many will admit it. This is a limitation of current technology.
Most mesh devices have a separate radio inside, that does the connection to the next unit. Then speed does not drop. We have such extra radio in our Audience devices. They work very well for such setups, but they are more expensive.

uberwebguru · Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:01 pm

All repeaters lose some speed while doing this re-broadcast. Just not many will admit it. This is a limitation of current technology.

So if AC #1 is connected via wired and AC #2 is connected to AC #1 via wireless(because do not want to run wire) as repeater, will both AC #1 and #2 loose speed or only AC #2 will loose speed?

Most mesh devices have a separate radio inside, that does the connection to the next unit. Then speed does not drop. We have such extra radio in our Audience devices. They work very well for such setups, but they are more expensive.

What is name of the audience devices that cost more? Links?

uberwebguru · Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:15 pm

All repeaters lose some speed while doing this re-broadcast. Just not many will admit it. This is a limitation of current technology.
Most mesh devices have a separate radio inside, that does the connection to the next unit. Then speed does not drop. We have such extra radio in our Audience devices. They work very well for such setups, but they are more expensive.

Oh i see the audience devices now
https://mikrotik.com/product/audience

ok will look these up

Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:19 pm

All repeaters lose some speed while doing this re-broadcast. Just not many will admit it. This is a limitation of current technology.
Most mesh devices have a separate radio inside, that does the connection to the next unit. Then speed does not drop. We have such extra radio in our Audience devices. They work very well for such setups, but they are more expensive.
Oh i see the audience devices now
https://mikrotik.com/product/audience

ok will look these up

be aware of frecuency limitations of audience 5ghz radios
2x2 radio
5.18 - 5.3 GHz

4x4 radio
5.5 - 5.85 GHz

bpwl · Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:46 pm

So if AC #1 is connected via wired and AC #2 is connected to AC #1 via wireless(because do not want to run wire) as repeater, will both AC #1 and #2 loose speed or only AC #2 will loose speed?

Think of it as follows: no speed lost, but ....
1: the AC#1, AC#2 and all clients are in one and the same RF cell. (Even if a client cannot connect to one of the AP's, the announcement of its transmission will be captured, and every device and AP in the cell will wait.)
2: In the RF cell, only ONE device can transmit at the same time in a channel.
3: However there can be multiple non-overlapping channels (the typical 20MHz wide channel 1, 6 and 11 in the 2.4GHz band)
4: A radio set up as repeater (retransmitting) can only operate in one channel.
5: Turbo mode , or cross-band mode, for a repeater is receiving on one radio and transmitting on another.

Using the repeater in turbo or cross-band mode will have transmission even while receiving.
Using the same-channel repeater mode, will need twice the transmission time. This will half the possible throughput
Who will be slowed down? All will have to share the unique air-time. The double transmission via the repeater consumes double the airtime. Everyone waits for free channel.

Many extrapolate this to say that if 2 repeater hops are used, (AP#1-AP#2-AP#3-dev) that will have 1/4 of the throughput. Not the correct extrapolation, the packet will have to be sent 3 times, so it is 1/3. And also: using same channel WDS is as bad as repeater mode for throughput.

What band to use for wireless uplink: 2.4GHz or 5 GHz? 5 GHz has room for more wide channels, and faster interface rate, 2.4GHz is less obstructed and passes walls better. So it depends.

This is not Mikrotik specific, it is how wifi works.

uberwebguru · Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:07 am

All repeaters lose some speed while doing this re-broadcast. Just not many will admit it. This is a limitation of current technology.
Most mesh devices have a separate radio inside, that does the connection to the next unit. Then speed does not drop. We have such extra radio in our Audience devices. They work very well for such setups, but they are more expensive.

I have decided to buy the "audience" device https://mikrotik.com/product/audience
but one question, when will mikrotik start making wifi 6 AP? with 802.11a/n/ac/ax?
When?

uberwebguru · Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:54 am

This is not Mikrotik specific, it is how wifi works.
thanks for the info, i think i will go with this https://mikrotik.com/product/audience
one thing am not if that is a typo or not is
it mentions that it can cover up to 20,000 square feet house

Is that really true?

bpwl · Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:12 am

20.000 sq ft .... 141 ft side in square. 42mx42m is quite big!

Is that really true? Well maybe. I don't know how accurate this test is: viewtopic.php?t=176564 , and on what freq is used to measure (the 2x2 or 4x4 5GHz). The test does not match (my) expectations and estimations.
Allowed signal strength in US is 10 times higher than Europe. (30dBm versus 20 dBm)
But what is coverage? It's a bit like the max rate, or the max number of clients. They may all be true , but can never be combined with range with their max values.
And coverage depends on the antenna gain of the client device also! Wifi always needs to function in both directions.
And only having "coverage" is the 'old' optimisation paradigma. Today we need "performance", what is done with smaller cells.

Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:34 am

42x42 meters is not that big, depends on what walls you have. Audience has amazing antennas. In an open space, it will cover even bigger areas.

Hominidae · Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:42 am

...I tend to believe that, when using wifiwave2 drivers.
Based on my experience with hap-ac^3, this is a real performance boost.

@normis: as Audience is wifiwave2 capable: is Audience 2nd 5Ghz band/device capable of running a "wireless wire" with wifiwave2 drivers (I understand that mesh is not available, right now) ?

gotsprings · Wed Mar 02, 2022 2:22 pm

...I tend to believe that, when using wifiwave2 drivers.
Based on my experience with hap-ac^3, this is a real performance boost.

@normis: as Audience is wifiwave2 capable: is Audience 2nd 5Ghz band/device capable of running a "wireless wire" with wifiwave2 drivers (I understand that mesh is not available, right now) ?

"Wireless back haul"

Hominidae · Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:21 pm

...whatever the proper name might be.
The question relates to the fact, that on wifiwave2 driver, the only modes available are "ap" or "station", no stadion-bridge or something that would indicate that a "wireless-backhaul" can be created with wifiwave2 drivers.

uberwebguru · Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:52 pm

20.000 sq ft .... 141 ft side in square. 42mx42m is quite big!

Is that really true? Well maybe. I don't know how accurate this test is: viewtopic.php?t=176564 , and on what freq is used to measure (the 2x2 or 4x4 5GHz). The test does not match (my) expectations and estimations.
Allowed signal strength in US is 10 times higher than Europe. (30dBm versus 20 dBm)
But what is coverage? It's a bit like the max rate, or the max number of clients. They may all be true , but can never be combined with range with their max values.
And coverage depends on the antenna gain of the client device also! Wifi always needs to function in both directions.
And only having "coverage" is the 'old' optimisation paradigma. Today we need "performance", what is done with smaller cells.

Which AP will be best for a 5000 sq ft, 4 floor house?
I thought the audience will do it
Also am in US, so US models to factor in any existing limitations or restrictions in AP

uberwebguru · Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:53 pm

20.000 sq ft .... 141 ft side in square. 42mx42m is quite big!
Is that really true? Well maybe. I don't know how accurate this test is: viewtopic.php?t=176564 , and on what freq is used to measure (the 2x2 or 4x4 5GHz). The test does not match (my) expectations and estimations.
Allowed signal strength in US is 10 times higher than Europe. (30dBm versus 20 dBm)
But what is coverage? It's a bit like the max rate, or the max number of clients. They may all be true , but can never be combined with range with their max values.
And coverage depends on the antenna gain of the client device also! Wifi always needs to function in both directions.
And only having "coverage" is the 'old' optimisation paradigma. Today we need "performance", what is done with smaller cells.

[*]

42x42 meters is not that big, depends on what walls you have. Audience has amazing antennas. In an open space, it will cover even bigger areas.

Which AP will be best for a 5000 sq ft, 4 floor house?
I thought the audience will do it
Also am in US, so US models to factor in any existing limitations or restrictions in AP

bpwl · Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:49 am

I only answer because you reference my text. Advising what to buy is risky if not all aspects of the needs are known.
So I stick to the numbers I know and understand.

The dB difference between US and EU is set with the regulatory domain. With US EIRP values the radio max power may be the real limit for the higher rates.(see data sheets).

The antenna gain of 3.5 dBi for 2.4GHz and 4.5dBi for 5GHz of the Audience is better than the almost dipole like antenna gain of the hAP ac2 with 2.5 dBi (dipole = 1 dBd = 2.15 dBi).
A hAP ac3 is 3 dBi for 2.4GHz and 5.5 dBi for 5 GHz. It can run wifiwave2 which with beamforming can add another 3 dB. But has no backhaul wifi, and wifiwave2 does not support WDS, yet.
Higher antenna gain in Europe with the EIRP limits turns down the TXpower of the radio. So the number of bars doesn't rise, even shrinks, but the real gain is in receiving the client device!

Difficult to select for someone else. I'm not able to include the "amazing" factor in these calculations, but doubling the range requires 6 dB extra. (it's logaritmic).
And any high gain antenna does only work because it reduces the directions. (from sphere to donut shape, even sectored for extreme values)

One AP for 4 floors? I would keep a budget for adding some more. I you insist on one AP only, don't take Mikrotik, and it will still be very hard to make it perform.

uberwebguru · Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:03 am

Difficult to select for someone else. I'm not able to include the "amazing" factor in these calculations, but doubling the range requires 6 dB extra. (it's logaritmic).
And any high gain antenna does only work because it reduces the directions. (from sphere to donut shape, even sectored for extreme values)

One AP for 4 floors? I would keep a budget for adding some more. I you insist on one AP only, don't take Mikrotik, and it will still be very hard to make it perform.

So buy more than 1 audience? I feel like for the price of audience it should perform to expectations.
Also not happy they added claim of 20k sq ft. With such claim, no one should think of even buying more than 1 as very few houses in the whole world are that big.
It is one of the most expensive for value mikrotik product.

I really want to stick to mikrotik for AP, so i think i will give audience a try with expectations i only need one
risky but will try the risk

uberwebguru · Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:21 am

42x42 meters is not that big, depends on what walls you have. Audience has amazing antennas. In an open space, it will cover even bigger areas.

42x42 meters is HUGE!
how many houses in the world are that big? very few
this is home office router/AP

bpwl · Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:27 pm

i will give audience a try with expectations i only need one

If only one Audience is used (or no meshing) , then take advantage of the wifiwave2 drivers, it will boost the range (beamforming).

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:18 pm

42x42 meters is not that big, depends on what walls you have. Audience has amazing antennas. In an open space, it will cover even bigger areas.
42x42 meters is HUGE!
how many houses in the world are that big? very few
this is home office router/AP

we tested it in our office, nearly all of the floor had OK signal, our office is huge

mkx · Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:37 pm

we tested it in our office, nearly all of the floor had OK signal, our office is huge

I'm guessing your office is open-space one? Without any walls worth mentioning? For that kind of setup wifi signal usually reaches up to 30-50 meters, concrete floor and ceiling actually help slightly as they reflect signal back into the room/hall. (a square with 42 metres long side has almost 60 metre long diagonal and corners are almost 30 metres away from centre).

But then typical houses (even the large ones) are typically not without internal walls ... even cardboard walls attenuate wireless signal reducing the coverage area. If internal walls are brick walls (or even concrete walls), then it is not possible to get this large coverage area using only single AP.

bpwl · Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:21 pm

For that kind of setup wifi signal usually reaches up to 30-50 meters

@mkx, I didn't want to react at first, but you have the same remarks as I wanted to make.
Since 802.11n reflections on walls,ceiling and floor in the same room do help the signal to travel further. (before 'n' they canceled each other). So the range should be somewhat better than free field outdoor. MT will see many bars on their mobile devices walking around. The Audience has strong radio's (eg compared to hAP ac3), so the full allowed EIRP will be reached on all MCS.
The antenna gain is not 'that' strong, 4.5dBi, but for indoor use that is quite good. The antenna gain is important for the received signal from the client. (as the EIRP rule will cap any extra TXpower of the AP)

But the unbalance between TXpower of the AP and TX power of the station might be greater here than one wants, giving trouble to connect, even with enough bars on the wifi symbol.
Don't know if MT used the 4x4 radio (EIRP up to 27dBm) or the 2x2 radio (EIRP up to 23dBm) in Latvia

AFAIK MT has not published the RF radiation pattern of the Audience. (https://twitter.com/mikrotik_com/status ... 8424160256) The possibility is there that it is maximised in the horizontal plane, and reduced verically. Lower end AP with MT have an almost spherical RF pattern, something that works very well for small fast cells and for passing walls, floors and ceilings. If the Audience has a pattern like on the right, how would one have to position the device for a 4 floor building ? That RF pattern like on the right could even explain the outcome in viewtopic.php?t=176564

Klembord-2.jpg

And to refer to the title of this thread: mind the reflector in the "cAP XL ac". Where does its 3dBi extra gain come from ???

Must cAP XL AC be installed on ceiling?

Must cAP XL AC be installed on ceiling?

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