Hello,
We are in preparations of trying to set up a wireless link from Cyprus to Lebanon in an effort to help operations for a local ISP in Lebanon at least until the current infrastructure problems are sorted.
Our site in Cyprus is about 850m high, where the site in Lebanon is at 1600m. The distance between two locations are about 240km, 80% of it being over the sea.
We are planning on trying Prism and Atheros with 5mhz channels (CM9, SR2 or SR5).
We will be using a 1.2m dish on one side and 3m on the other.
The power levels and the bandwidth desires are not an issue at the moment, our primary aim is to get a link up and running and bother with the rest later. A link budget analysis shows that such a link is possible.
We wanted to post a message here and find out from people if any had similar experiences in the past, and the results achieved.
Thank you,
Kemal
Well, I have no practical experience with such long distance links (and regulations here in Germany do surely not permit the necessary EIRP 
), but in theory there should be no unsolvable problem.
Not too long ago two guys made a 279 km WiFi link (see here: http://www.wilac.net/modules.php?op=mod ... =0&thold=0).
As you wrote a link budget calculation does show that this should be possible. And the height above sea level provides for more than enough room for the fresnel zone clearance.
I SUPPOSE (!) that with that level above the sea and highly directional antennas reflections from the water will probably be - if not neglectable - at least manageable.
As with RouterOS you do not have fixed maximum ack-timeout values on the wireless interfaces, I think you could succeed.
But only aiming those antennas correctly will probaby be a lot of work...
I wish you good luck - and surely everyone here would be interested in your proceedings and results.
Best regards,
Christian Meis
), but in theory there should be no unsolvable problem.Not too long ago two guys made a 279 km WiFi link (see here: http://www.wilac.net/modules.php?op=mod ... =0&thold=0).
As you wrote a link budget calculation does show that this should be possible. And the height above sea level provides for more than enough room for the fresnel zone clearance.
I SUPPOSE (!) that with that level above the sea and highly directional antennas reflections from the water will probably be - if not neglectable - at least manageable.
As with RouterOS you do not have fixed maximum ack-timeout values on the wireless interfaces, I think you could succeed.
But only aiming those antennas correctly will probaby be a lot of work...
I wish you good luck - and surely everyone here would be interested in your proceedings and results.
Best regards,
Christian Meis
Greetings from a Lebanese.
My advice, rather stick to 2.4 GHz, though doesn't sound good regarding the closeness of water. If you are interested, in South Africa, we have tested 200mwatt radios on 3 meter diameter 33db 2.4GHz grids. Result has been around 120km, 512kbps. I believe with a bit of amplification, you can double the distance with much higher throughput.
I belive our cost wis arround $1600 per Grid. There are also 37db Grids available.
I know satellite upload is not allowed in Lebanon, but I don't think it is that difficult to smuggle in a few portable satellite units or even a normal unit. Get the dish in Lebanon and subscribe over the internet. Trust me, I was running a small ISP business in Lebanon before I moved to South Africa. Icasa, our regulatory authority in South Africa is very strict regarding satellite communication, and till today, with their sophisticated equipment, they have not been able to trace satellite equipment unless spotted by the eye.
Good Luck.
Simon
My advice, rather stick to 2.4 GHz, though doesn't sound good regarding the closeness of water. If you are interested, in South Africa, we have tested 200mwatt radios on 3 meter diameter 33db 2.4GHz grids. Result has been around 120km, 512kbps. I believe with a bit of amplification, you can double the distance with much higher throughput.
I belive our cost wis arround $1600 per Grid. There are also 37db Grids available.
I know satellite upload is not allowed in Lebanon, but I don't think it is that difficult to smuggle in a few portable satellite units or even a normal unit. Get the dish in Lebanon and subscribe over the internet. Trust me, I was running a small ISP business in Lebanon before I moved to South Africa. Icasa, our regulatory authority in South Africa is very strict regarding satellite communication, and till today, with their sophisticated equipment, they have not been able to trace satellite equipment unless spotted by the eye.
Good Luck.
Simon
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MyThoughts
Member Candidate
- Posts: 218
- Joined:
Distance wise I have no practical experience, however water can add a very unpredictable element to the setup.
In my experience keeping the as much as the signal away from water is key. So that means as small as a frensel zone as you can manage.
Small Frensel Zone = High frequency
I'd test high the upper end of 5ghz if possible 1st
Just my 2cents
In my experience keeping the as much as the signal away from water is key. So that means as small as a frensel zone as you can manage.
Small Frensel Zone = High frequency
I'd test high the upper end of 5ghz if possible 1st
Just my 2cents
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BulleriNET
Frequent Visitor
- Posts: 99
- Joined:
- Location: prescott az 86301
wow does any one relize that may be a world record??
That is a huge link please keep the board updated on the status of this project. i did some online research and the current record is a little under 125 mile you link is 150 miles it would be a realy nice braging rights for microtik if you pull it off
Vendors Claim World Record For Wireless Transmission Distance
By Mobile Pipeline Staff Courtesy of Mobile Pipeline
A wireless ISP (WISP) and a wireless broadband equipment vendor Tuesday claimed they have set the world's record for longest wireless data transmission.
Microserv Computer Technologies, a WISP in Idaho Falls, Idaho, and wireless broadband equipment vendor Trango Broadband Wireless, said they completed a point-to-point wireless link of 137.2 miles. The companies said the connection was between two line-of-site mountaintops in Idaho.
The vendors claimed they achieved an FTP file transfer rate of 2.3 Mbps. The previous record was about 125 miles, although that was done using a Wi-Fi based system compared to Trango's fixed wireless system.
Vendors Claim World Record For Wireless Transmission Distance
By Mobile Pipeline Staff Courtesy of Mobile Pipeline
A wireless ISP (WISP) and a wireless broadband equipment vendor Tuesday claimed they have set the world's record for longest wireless data transmission.
Microserv Computer Technologies, a WISP in Idaho Falls, Idaho, and wireless broadband equipment vendor Trango Broadband Wireless, said they completed a point-to-point wireless link of 137.2 miles. The companies said the connection was between two line-of-site mountaintops in Idaho.
The vendors claimed they achieved an FTP file transfer rate of 2.3 Mbps. The previous record was about 125 miles, although that was done using a Wi-Fi based system compared to Trango's fixed wireless system.
Hi kamel
I can guranette you only 2Mbits link to cyprus but it will be from north lebanon and not beirut,it will cost you around 15,000$ if intersted send me an email k.samin@truevoip.com,ur welcome
Re: Hi kamel
Can you tell the rest of us about your solution ?I can guranette you only 2Mbits link to cyprus but it will be from north lebanon and not beirut,it will cost you around 15,000$ if intersted send me an email k.samin@truevoip.com,ur welcome
Here's an antenna suggestion for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Whit ... ntenna.jpg
Seriously though, I hope you have plenty of land in the foreground at each side. Also if you can spend the money you should use something that supports diversity receive - like an Orthogon Spectra. Otherwise, perhaps someone at Mikrotik has a beta driver for the pre-n MIMO cards, which might also work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Whit ... ntenna.jpg
Seriously though, I hope you have plenty of land in the foreground at each side. Also if you can spend the money you should use something that supports diversity receive - like an Orthogon Spectra. Otherwise, perhaps someone at Mikrotik has a beta driver for the pre-n MIMO cards, which might also work.
Re: Hi kamel
Most Probably from Shekaa!I can guranette you only 2Mbits link to cyprus but it will be from north lebanon and not beirut,it will cost you around 15,000$ if intersted send me an email k.samin@truevoip.com,ur welcome
using 3m sat dish w/ biquad like feed (yap biquad) and SR5 miniPCI on PCI miniPCI adapter ... running on ALLMIGHTY HP KAYAK 450Mhz .. both side ...
montenegro <---> italy inland ... 8/8mbps
it was not permanent and public link so i do not have pictures ...
stronger feed, shorter cables (we user about 10m CDF400 one and 6m toher side
) .. .maybe more bandwidth
montenegro <---> italy inland ... 8/8mbps
it was not permanent and public link so i do not have pictures ... stronger feed, shorter cables (we user about 10m CDF400 one and 6m toher side
) .. .maybe more bandwidth 
12' dishes are only 45dB of gain at 5.8, so there is no way you are getting 60-65dB out of a 9' grid. You might see 40dB...Hi all
3 Meter Grids!! that are 9 Ft ,that will be arund 60-65 Dbi Gain!.
And sure running H-pol in 5-6 Ghz over water is OK.
We are running 42 km over water with 26 dbi grid and the speed is 55 Mbits TCP real speed
//Rickard
George
I would probably use a Gemini rather than a Spectra. Last time I looked the Gemini did much better at low modulation rates.Here's an antenna suggestion for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Whit ... ntenna.jpg
Seriously though, I hope you have plenty of land in the foreground at each side. Also if you can spend the money you should use something that supports diversity receive - like an Orthogon Spectra. Otherwise, perhaps someone at Mikrotik has a beta driver for the pre-n MIMO cards, which might also work.
George
Is 12¨ Dishes like 3 Meter Dishes ? I was typing Grid and that was wrong...12' dishes are only 45dB of gain at 5.8, so there is no way you are getting 60-65dB out of a 9' grid. You might see 40dB...Hi all
3 Meter Grids!! that are 9 Ft ,that will be arund 60-65 Dbi Gain!.
And sure running H-pol in 5-6 Ghz over water is OK.
We are running 42 km over water with 26 dbi grid and the speed is 55 Mbits TCP real speed
//Rickard
George
3 meter = ~10 Feet and that is verry big i found the Gain on a Sat sid and it was for the 4 Ghz band.
//Rickard
Did I miss something?
The problem is not the fresnelzone it is the earth radius.
The earth radius at a distance of 240km is about 4500m
the fresnel zone of about 86m you can forgett it but what about the radius?
As I understand you must have an tower of 4604m IF the 2 points are on the same
heigth. Is this right? If you put the 60% fresnel rule you get still 4570m or am I wrong?
What about loss if the fresnel zone is not ok say 20% or what ever.
Does anybody have any formula for this?
Greetings
Beat
The problem is not the fresnelzone it is the earth radius.
The earth radius at a distance of 240km is about 4500m
the fresnel zone of about 86m you can forgett it but what about the radius?
As I understand you must have an tower of 4604m IF the 2 points are on the same
heigth. Is this right? If you put the 60% fresnel rule you get still 4570m or am I wrong?
What about loss if the fresnel zone is not ok say 20% or what ever.
Does anybody have any formula for this?
Greetings
Beat
I think the earth curvature will be 1128m according to this:
http://www.radiolabs.com/stations/wifi_calc.html
http://www.radiolabs.com/stations/wifi_calc.html
Ip
I have found 2 totally different formulas for earth curvation (apart from taking
effectiv earth radius against "normal" earth radius).
I'm pretty confused which one is right.
Eff. eaerth radius against earth radius is not "soo much" the difference but the
other stuff is pretty different.
Now the question is which one is right for wireless?
Here the formulas
L: Linkdistance in km
R: Earth radius: 6371km
Re: Eff. Earth radius 4/3*R = 8495
Case1.1 (This formula is taken from zytrax calculation)
L² / (8*R)
60km-> 71m
240km -> 1130m
Case1.2
L² / (8*Re)
60km -> 53m
240km -> 848m
Case 2.1 (This formula is taken from wikipedia (german) for earth curvation
( L² + R² )½ - R
60km -> 283m
240km -> 4519m
Case 2.2
( L² + Re² )½ - Re
60km-> 212m
240km -> 3390m
Online calulators which use either one of this formulas (apart from the radiolabs)
http://www.lancom-systems.de/Outdoor-Fu ... 148.0.html
60km -> 282.5m
240km -> 4520.5m
or
http://www.zytrax.com/tech/wireless/calc.htm
60km -> 53m
I have found 2 totally different formulas for earth curvation (apart from taking
effectiv earth radius against "normal" earth radius).
I'm pretty confused which one is right.
Eff. eaerth radius against earth radius is not "soo much" the difference but the
other stuff is pretty different.
Now the question is which one is right for wireless?
Here the formulas
L: Linkdistance in km
R: Earth radius: 6371km
Re: Eff. Earth radius 4/3*R = 8495
Case1.1 (This formula is taken from zytrax calculation)
L² / (8*R)
60km-> 71m
240km -> 1130m
Case1.2
L² / (8*Re)
60km -> 53m
240km -> 848m
Case 2.1 (This formula is taken from wikipedia (german) for earth curvation
( L² + R² )½ - R
60km -> 283m
240km -> 4519m
Case 2.2
( L² + Re² )½ - Re
60km-> 212m
240km -> 3390m
Online calulators which use either one of this formulas (apart from the radiolabs)
http://www.lancom-systems.de/Outdoor-Fu ... 148.0.html
60km -> 282.5m
240km -> 4520.5m
or
http://www.zytrax.com/tech/wireless/calc.htm
60km -> 53m
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Alessio Garavano
Member
- Posts: 306
- Joined:
- Location: Corrientes, Argentina
- Contact:
Re: 240km link , any suggestions?
Great challenge, good luck brother… share all about this...
Greetings from Argentina
Alessio
Greetings from Argentina
Alessio
I can only drool about working on such a cool project
I'm not sure what you used for your link budget, but as someone mentioned, at that range you definately need to keep earth curvature in mind! I suggest using Radio Mobile (http://www.cplus.org/rmw/english1.html) to perform the link budget calculations, as it will definatly take proper earth curvature into account.
Good luck, and please keep us updated on the project!
I'm not sure what you used for your link budget, but as someone mentioned, at that range you definately need to keep earth curvature in mind! I suggest using Radio Mobile (http://www.cplus.org/rmw/english1.html) to perform the link budget calculations, as it will definatly take proper earth curvature into account.
Good luck, and please keep us updated on the project!
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joeri91942
Frequent Visitor
- Posts: 88
- Joined:
- Location: Sundsvall, Sweden
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roneyeduardo
just joined
- Posts: 10
- Joined:
good news everyone!
i've simulated this link using:
2x 18dBi (1,2m diameter) grid
SR-9 - 900MHz mPCI
with external 5W AMP (read below for addional info)
link should be estabilished with nstreme dual (2 card each side) one for TX with AMP second only for recieve.
5Watt one-directional AMP should be cheap to made/buy (200-400USD/each) on 900Mhz
it's safe to add bandpass filters on RX'es (on one side TX on 907MHz, RX 922MHz - 15MHz should be enough to weaken signal by 6dB (that mean from 5W to about 1W that should be safe on rec. card)
Theoreticaly is possible to get 10-12Mbps full duplex traffic - that should be enough for even big network
I've tested Nstreme dual using two SR-9 and was working FINE!
- as long as i used 10MHz bandwidtch and 24 or 36Mbps solid data rate.
i've simulated this link using:
2x 18dBi (1,2m diameter) grid
SR-9 - 900MHz mPCI
with external 5W AMP (read below for addional info)
link should be estabilished with nstreme dual (2 card each side) one for TX with AMP second only for recieve.
5Watt one-directional AMP should be cheap to made/buy (200-400USD/each) on 900Mhz
it's safe to add bandpass filters on RX'es (on one side TX on 907MHz, RX 922MHz - 15MHz should be enough to weaken signal by 6dB (that mean from 5W to about 1W that should be safe on rec. card)
Theoreticaly is possible to get 10-12Mbps full duplex traffic - that should be enough for even big network
I've tested Nstreme dual using two SR-9 and was working FINE!
- as long as i used 10MHz bandwidtch and 24 or 36Mbps solid data rate.
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BulleriNET
Frequent Visitor
- Posts: 99
- Joined:
- Location: prescott az 86301
program
what program did you use to do that
Radio Mobile
http://www.cplus.org/rmw/download.html
http://www.cplus.org/rmw/download.html
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BrianHiggins
Forum Veteran
- Posts: 720
- Joined:
- Location: Norwalk, CT
- Contact:
In Greece we have a very strange phenomenon.
We have a link from Rafina (a small city/suberb east of Athens) to Island of Mykonos.
According to the calculations there is NO Los, the freshnel zone passes inside the water. The distance is 130 klm, and unfortunately none of the spots is high enough,
The link is working, not with good speeds, when the air temperature is more than 25 degrees celcium.
You can read here at awmn's forum, but unfortunately for you it is in greek, but at least you can see some charts.
We have a link from Rafina (a small city/suberb east of Athens) to Island of Mykonos.
According to the calculations there is NO Los, the freshnel zone passes inside the water. The distance is 130 klm, and unfortunately none of the spots is high enough,
The link is working, not with good speeds, when the air temperature is more than 25 degrees celcium.
You can read here at awmn's forum, but unfortunately for you it is in greek, but at least you can see some charts.
Point #1 :i can check using radio mobile, but you should specifity GPS position + altitude
http://wind.awmn.net/?page=nodes&node=2972
37°58'36.12"N
24° 0'39.96"E
15 m height
Point #2 : http://wind.awmn.net/?page=nodes&node=8466
37°26'31.56"N
25°20'5.28"E
85m height
The horizont is eating the fresnel.i don't have them ...
i'm calcultating on-the-fly
You should look for higher point. If you want more than 100+ km link.
The radiowaves use water to "jump".In Greece we have a very strange phenomenon.
We have a link from Rafina (a small city/suberb east of Athens) to Island of Mykonos.
According to the calculations there is NO Los, the freshnel zone passes inside the water. The distance is 130 klm, and unfortunately none of the spots is high enough,
A friend of mine used old fashion antenna to catch Air TVs and we found that it is better to point the antenna in the water instead of in the air
.Whatever the water is undpredictable, soo the link should be very unstable in my opinion.
P.S. And I'm waiting for more info of the record killer
.is that 4500 for earth?Did I miss something?
The problem is not the fresnelzone it is the earth radius.
The earth radius at a distance of 240km is about 4500m
the fresnel zone of about 86m you can forgett it but what about the radius?
As I understand you must have an tower of 4604m IF the 2 points are on the same
heigth. Is this right? If you put the 60% fresnel rule you get still 4570m or am I wrong?
What about loss if the fresnel zone is not ok say 20% or what ever.
Does anybody have any formula for this?
Greetings
Beat
i guess that's for moon
The best getting started guide is here:Program downloads maps itself from NASA site (or smtg like this)Marksx- where can i have maps for this software! Any documentation for using this intresting application?
Documentation - I'don't know, maybe google will help you.
I was learning myself on this software.
http://www.pizon.org/radio-mobile-tutorial/index.html
Re: 240km link , any suggestions?
selam kemal bey nasilsiniz
bende kibristayim ve yapmis ve yapacaginiz calismalar icin sizinle gorusebilirmiyiz.. tesekkurler
bende kibristayim ve yapmis ve yapacaginiz calismalar icin sizinle gorusebilirmiyiz.. tesekkurler
Hello,
We are in preparations of trying to set up a wireless link from Cyprus to Lebanon in an effort to help operations for a local ISP in Lebanon at least until the current infrastructure problems are sorted.
Our site in Cyprus is about 850m high, where the site in Lebanon is at 1600m. The distance between two locations are about 240km, 80% of it being over the sea.
We are planning on trying Prism and Atheros with 5mhz channels (CM9, SR2 or SR5).
We will be using a 1.2m dish on one side and 3m on the other.
The power levels and the bandwidth desires are not an issue at the moment, our primary aim is to get a link up and running and bother with the rest later. A link budget analysis shows that such a link is possible.
We wanted to post a message here and find out from people if any had similar experiences in the past, and the results achieved.
Thank you,
Kemal
Re: 240km link , any suggestions?
This link was done 1 year ago by a member here in the forum and a close friend, I cant mention his name , we have internet in tripoli from Cyprus since 8 month anyone in Lebanon can come and test they are welcomed.
Re: 240km link , any suggestions?
hi
i am trying to setup WISP in Cyprus if anyone want to be a partner your welcome to join. you can contact for more info bilgin@hotmail.co.uk
i am trying to setup WISP in Cyprus if anyone want to be a partner your welcome to join. you can contact for more info bilgin@hotmail.co.uk
Re: 240km link , any suggestions?
ayzanet i need to talk to you i am from lebanon and i look forwad to establish a link to cyprus with an isp so if you please give me ur e-mail or reply to me at doumas89@hotmail.com thank you
Re: 240km link , any suggestions?
kthameen you are from cyprus or tripoli ? add me on doumas89@hotmail.com
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